Problems with Pip

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BINKYBUNNY FORUMS

This topic has 22sd replies, 12 voices, and was last updated 17 years ago by RabbitPam.

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- 04/14/2008 at 5:31 PM
  MimzMum
  Participant
  8029 posts
  So some of you may know that I’ve been trying to bond Pip and Mimzy for about a month and a half now. And things have been going pretty well so far.
  
  In the last few days, I have been less than happy with my daughter as far as her care for Pip, who normally stays in her room. My daughter is a night owl and stays up until sometimes 5 A.M. every night and I was sure this was throwing off Pip’s sleep cycle, But I figured, eh, it’ll work itself out. When Pip first arrived I thought she seemed to be doing well in my daughter’s room and the mutual affection was helpful to my daughter’s emotional and physiological health.
  
  The last few days that Pip has been out exercising I was noticing that she didn’t seem to be comfortable in the litter box. She looked like she was straining to me. Last night I discovered (turning her over) that I had to pull a few bb’s out of her bottom as they were dry enough to stick there. I am thinking now she is not drinking enough water either, as the bottle is not emptying. (There is no urine scald or any reddened skin or anything else untoward.) I cleaned the bottle out and refilled it and this morning she still hadn’t drunk any of it. I tried tipping it and raising it up a little and she took a peck at it this afternoon, so I’m thinking something got her to stop using the sippy (perhaps my girl had twisted it closed too tight) and I’m going to have to reteach her to use it. In the meantime, I gave her a large bowl of fresh snow to entice her to drink and I’m giving her regular dinners of romaine lettuce. She will also have a crock to drink from as soon as I find it.
  
  On top of this, we noticed tufts of fur floating around the xpen. Big ones. I looked Pip over last night and couldn’t find any signs of injury, but I decided the bonding would have to be put off for a bit until I find out why she’s having these various problems. The two buns are all cuddly when together, I do not see them fighting. The hubby said he noticed Pip grooming her ruff rather hard last night. This morning, while adjusting her hay rack, I saw two large bare patches on her throat and neck areas. This is where the fur had come from. There is no bleeding or abcess, so I am wondering why she’s suddenly started pulling out tufts of her own fur. She is supposed to be spayed and Mimzy has long since been neutered. There is no chance of pregnancy.
  
  The last straw for me is how nervous poor Pip seems to be. She is VERY jumpy and easily spooked, which she hasn’t really been before. Lots of energy, yes, but not a scary bun.
  
  So with all this come to pass, it was decided finally, that Pip needed to move out of my daughter’s room. There’s only one other place safe to put her currently. So I placed her cage on top of Mimzy’s last night and both he and I got to spend the night listening to her thrash and freak out in the new space. I also had to clean her cage thoroughly since it was full of old hay and torn carboard and hair and other undesirables. Perhaps this is what has started her scratching and pulling hair.
  
  Now it’s not that my girl can’t care for her, but she is currently trying to finish her school up for the year and is too stressed. This stress is apparently carrying over to the bun and she’s not doing as well as I’d like to see her do. I feel bad, because it is like I’m ‘taking her bun away’. She understands why Pippi has to be moved, and for the most part is okay with it. After all, she doesn’t want to be the reason that Pippi becomes ill or dies, so she sees the logic. But I still feel terrible about the whole thing. Pip is NOT my bunny. I don’t really need to have to take on another one at present, but someone has to take care of her and since she’s almost completely bonded to Mimzy, I can’t see separating them. But I feel bad; both for taking Pip from my daughter, and for letting Pip get to this point that she’s so uncomfortable and obviously having physical difficulties right now.
  
  Can anyone give me some advice for the physical problems she seems to be exibitng? Today her poop is somewhat back to normal, but I’m worried about the drinking and fur pulling. I know it will take time for her to readjust to the room change, I don’t have any fresh pineapple to add to the water, but I think it’s mostly a mechanical problem…she may need to drink from a crock from now on.
- 04/14/2008 at 5:43 PM
  Scarlet_Rose
  Participant
  4293 posts
  Oh dear Mimz, what a task set before you. Pulling of fur from the chest could mean several things and off the top of my head, tooth pain, stress and false preganancy. You mentioned she is not drinking a lot of water, but how is her eating? Is she eating hay at all? I think you could be right about Pippi picking up on your daughters stress and is exhibiting it with the fur pulling. Perhaps being up so high (higher than normal) is also causing some undue reaction and perhaps placing her next to Mimzy where she can see her will help to calm her down. Rabbits do not generally like heights very much and if they are not used to it (like a multi-level condo) it can be quite scary. I would avoid adding sugar to the water because this can lead to a rabbit only drinking the sweetened water and refusing the plain icky stuff. I think you are doing well with giving more romaine and soak it in a bit of water too before giving it to her. You definately do not want your rabbit to get dehydrated.
- 04/14/2008 at 5:56 PM
  MimzMum
  Participant
  8029 posts
  Yes, I am definitely thinking it’s stress related. She doesn’t seem to mind the height of the cage, and she hears Mimzy rustling about below her and recognizes it’s him. I cannot put them side to side, there simply isn’t room where they are. She was more settled by early morning than she has been in my daughter’s room in a long time, according to what I relayed of her movements and how she normally is, according to my daughter.
  She still eats hay and lettuce like a lawn mower. Appetite is not lacking whatsoever. I checked her teeth and they look fine. Can’t see into the back of her mouth of course, and I do plan on having her seen by a vet if I don’t see some improvement in her drinking habits.
  
  I wonder too, if the stress is caused by being separated from Mimzy each night…but until I know what’s going on, I can’t put them together again for fear of it affecting their bonding.
  She knows he’s there below her. I think that gives her a little calming effect.
- 04/14/2008 at 6:27 PM
  ScooterandAnnette
  Participant
  1090 posts
  Just a thought based on something that happened here not long ago: one of of our bunnies (Reno) tends to be a bit, well beeotchy from time to time. When that happens she often chases one of our other girls (Aeryn) around quite a bit. Last week was one of those moods for her, and I noticed she was being particularly aggressive with Aeryn and I was sure her little teeth were bared during one of her lunges. There was fur everywhere, and some of it had what seemed to be skin on it. I took a look at Aeryn and sure enough there was a bald patch on her neck. No bleeding, but I’m thinking that the fur must be attached to an outer layer of skin and that’s what had come off. There was also a little bit of fur/skin hanging down on her neck a little bit. We separated them and Aeryn got to spend a few nights in a cage by herself and everything’s all better now. But I’m wondering if maybe Mimzy’s responsible for the bare patch on Pip, and Pip’s rough grooming was just to get rid of any loose/hanging sections.
  
  – Annette
- 04/14/2008 at 7:35 PM
  MimzMum
  Participant
  8029 posts
  Yes, I had thought that might be a possibility too, that’s why they are currently separate and will stay that way until I see changes in Pip.
  I certainly don’t want to have them suddenly disliking each other and the whole bonding process go down the tubes.
- 04/14/2008 at 9:01 PM
  MimzMum
  Participant
  8029 posts
  And actually, I have one more quick question…if Pip were not drinking as much water, would that cause her urine to smell stronger? I know it can happen with humans, and I was wondering if that might be the case with her, since she has a much stronger odor than Mimzy does.
  Thankies!
- 04/15/2008 at 6:23 AM
  JK
  Participant
  2223 posts
  Sorry you are going thru all this. How old is your daughter? You know for the sake of the rabbit I would take over the responsibility for now as she is stressed and I’m sure that is carrying over to the bun. I think the strong urine smell is from lack of water! She could be getting dehydrated. Edson’s pee doesn’t smell at all because it is so diluted as he drinks a ton.
- 04/15/2008 at 6:40 AM
  Lion_Lop_Lover
  Participant
  971 posts
  Eeps I don’t have anything else to offer than what’s already been said…but I hope Pip feels better soon ((((hugs))))
- 04/15/2008 at 6:45 AM
  Beka27
  Participant
  16016 posts
  can you take Pip in for a check-up and express these concerns with your vet? another thing, make her veggies very very wet when you give them to her. i hope you can figure out a way to get them bonded. i may have misread your post, but is it possible that she’s stressing b/c she wants to be with Mimzy at night? if they’re together during the day, maybe she’s more bonded to him than you think. is Mimzy actually fighting with her?
- 04/15/2008 at 7:57 AM
  ScooterandAnnette
  Participant
  1090 posts
  Does it just smell stronger, or does it smell kind of musky as well?
  
  When Reno is going through a particularly aggressive phase her urine has a very strong, musky odor to it. I think it might be nature’s way of telling others “Back off, I’m not in the mood”.
  – Annette
- 04/15/2008 at 8:13 AM
  Sarita
  Participant
  18851 posts
  I’m wondering as well if they are almost completely bonded if you should keep them together 24/7. And hopefully your daughter will understand that once they are bonded they must stay together under any circumstances too.
- 04/15/2008 at 10:10 AM
  Beka27
  Participant
  16016 posts
  have you given more thought to the NIC condo? maybe build a temporary one with a divider down the middle that can be removed during the day and put back at night if the need be.
- 04/15/2008 at 11:29 AM
  kimberleyanddarren
  Participant
  2520 posts
  (((((vibes for pip)))))
- 04/15/2008 at 3:41 PM
  charlie82
  Participant
  295 posts
  Hi!!
  
  I know you do am amazing job with your bunnies but I really want to mimic what beka said..
  I think a lot of the problem could be due to the fact that Pip is split up from Mimzy on a night. To me it sounds like they are bonded and you should only really ever split them up if they are fighting…and I don’t count fur pulling as fighting, that is just something buns will do. Sometimes they will have little spats but so long as it doesn’t escalate to true aggression towards one another you have to let them sort it out themselves. Bunnies that are bonded (doesn’t have to be true love) can suffer from a lot of stress related issues and depression if they are split. When I had to split two of mine up doe to the doe repeatedly attacking and bullying the buck I had to keep them apart using nic grids. However my buck would not eat or drink and I was having to force feed. After having him fully health checked there was nothing physically wrong with him, it was all emotional stress because even though he was near the doe he wasn’t ‘with her’ and he was so sad and depressed. Once he was bonded with a different bunny he was a completely different character!
  I think you should keep them together if you can. So long as she is eating plenty of greens washed well she will be taking in some fluids it will do her good to have Mimzy with her…I bet you find that she is a whole lot better for it 🙂 xx
- 04/15/2008 at 4:52 PM
  BinkyBunny
  Moderator
  8776 posts
  Well I think because her behavior, along with her original messy poops might signify stress too (especially now that it seems to all be better) Also, not sure if your daughter gives her too many treats? That can cause poopy butt too.
  
  It is amazing how animals can pick up on our stress even if it doesn’t seem overtly apparant to us. I think it was a good idea to take Pips out of your daughters room until things get a little more settled for your girl. Year end studies can sure be intense, so completely understandable.
  
  ALso, I am sorry, but you can you refresh my memory. Are Pip and your bunny actually bonded? And when you mean rough grooming, are you talking about pulling out whiskers and hair? Jack used to do that – I would pet him and gently push his nose face away. I would then pet his ears over and over and that seemed to be a gentle groom trigger (some others have the trigger on their backside – Jack has it there too
  
  The other thing is would watch to see how Rucy reacted and eventually she would run away, and he would be left alone, so he learned rough grooming means lonely bun, so he sort of got the hang of it.
  
  The other thing is she could be going through a false pregnancy – though that would be unusual for a spayed female, it is still known to happen – how long has she been spayed? This can also make her moody and go into nesting mode (pulling out fur)
- 04/16/2008 at 7:32 AM
  babybunsmum
  Participant
  3896 posts
  ((((((pip))))))
  
  i was also wondering if the stronger smelling urine was about some kind of marking. i seem notice that stronger smell with baby when her anal glands need a cleaning, usually after she has tryed to ‘claim new territory’. how is she today?
- 04/16/2008 at 2:25 PM
  MimzMum
  Participant
  8029 posts
  Hi everyone!
  Thanks so much for all your replies! ^^ Sorry I am so late in replying, we’ve beien doing a lot of town runs.
  Pip was actually doing much better by the second night and now, well, she’s definitely taken over the room situation; she wakes me promptly at 5 AM with much litter box throwing and stomping around and I have to clean up a bit and give pets and talk to her. This seems to calm her down for a few hours. Unfortunately, this has gotten Mimzy into the habit of doing much the same thing, but I don’t mind spending those quiet hours with the buns. They seem to appreciate being out of their pens at that time, and we have had some nice cuddling sessions that we didn’t get before.
  Her urine smell is not as strong. With me regulating her diet better, her poops are not anywhere near as sticky and hard and she is already feeling better at litter box time. Her treats were regulated by me before, my daughter couldn’t give her anything I hadn’t sanctioned, so that was my fault as well, but I think the interaction and the lack of the light being on all night, plus the more regular feedings and more hay instead of pellets or treats or even chew toys all seem to be agreeing with her. If I know anything about bunnies in the short time I’ve been a bunny mum, it’s that they are intense creatures of habit. They like their routines. When those routines are disturbed it causes disease and discomfort. This was what I was afraid was happening, so I had to step in, no matter how uncomfortable it made both myself and my daughter.
  She does understand their need to be together. She comes into my room now to spend time with her bunny and Pip is glad to see her. But I know that as she and Mimzy become more bonded, they will enjoy each other’s company more than ours. I’ll still be available for them, and so will my daughter, but right now I am just the primary caregiver and a whole new adjustment is needing to be made.
  They are still one pen atop the other until I see that neck fur coming back right and Pip has made the transition to her new digs and is comfortable with them. (The patch of skin is quite visible and seems like it’s trying to heal, but I’d like to see that fur come back in right.) I still take them out to the xpen, and even the divided proximity seems to be doing some good. A few things keep me from putting them permanently together right now, one being Pip’s current health issues, the other being lack of space and the third being that Mimzy doesn’t particularly seem in a hurry to share his 24/7 living space. I’d like to see Pip settle down and become less nervous before I stick them together at night, when I am passed out and can’t really watch them well. I still don’t know how the fur was removed, by fighting or over-grooming. Plus they both need a good nail trim and gland cleaning…I’ve actually noticed Mimzy’s toe pads for the first time, I had thought he’d pulled out a nail until I realized I was seeing his little pink toes! (OMG they are SO cute!)
  
  Anyway, we are progressing and I am just glad to see that Pip is doing better. She is also testing her sippy bottle again and seems to be using it, a HUGE relief for me! I do give her very wet veggies until I don’t have bunny pee smell in my room as strong as it’s been. When all I smell is the sweet aroma of hay again, I’ll know everything is back to normal.
  I have to go to town again today, so this is just a quick response. I’ll read over all the posts again later and address any other questions you all have. Thanks so much for all your help, and for confirming that I was doing the right thing. (((((((((((((((((hugs for Binky Members)))))))))))))))
- 04/16/2008 at 2:58 PM
  JK
  Participant
  2223 posts
  So glad things are settling down. They are creatures of habit that’s for sure! They know the hour of the day to the minute! Keep us updated!
- 04/16/2008 at 4:01 PM
  charlie82
  Participant
  295 posts
  ahhh I am so pleased Pip is doing better!
  
  As far as bonding goes…. I’ll give you my take from my own experience from bonding my own and fosters I have had. If you don’t see aggression when you have them together during the day then that’s the time to leave them together 24/7. Rabbits are funny little things and once you split them up, even if it just overnight or a trip to the vets without one another etc etc it literally means the rabbits take a step back from establishing their relationship. It means that every time you re-introduce them they have to figure it out between themselves once again… the only way to get around that is to leave them together completely. Trust me, if they are going to fight you would have had that by now. Fur pulling is natural and probably happened during mounting… it’s not pleasant to see this under any circumstances but they have to get through that stage before they can be truely bonded.
  
  I’m sure you know what you are doing though, and it probably helps Pip to know that Mimzy is so close by. You are right to wait until she is fully healthy before taking the next step!! You are a good bunny mum 🙂
  
  I completely understand how your daughter is feeling. I had two of my buns in my bedroom with me and got so used to having them there…but they would wake me up every day between 4 and 5am running around playing, chewing up their cardboard box etc that it just wore me down. In the end I left that room and went into the little box room so they could still have all of that space (I literally only have room for a bed and set of drawers in my room…they have a huge double bedroom to themselves) and it killed me not having them so close. Now my dog sleeps in my room but when we move next month he isn’t allowed upstairs so that’s going to be hard 🙁 I’ll be so upset but I will learn to live with it. I’m sure your daughter understands and will feel better about it soon.
  
  Angela x
- 04/17/2008 at 6:04 PM
  MimzMum
  Participant
  8029 posts
  Thank you, everyone, for all this wonderful advice! I’ve taken it quite to heart and it has helped me to see several things I didn’t before.
  Today, Mim and Pip are spending time in the xpen together, most of the time under the willow tent (or what’s left of it) and other times venturing out and seeing what kind of trouble they can get into. It’s quite cute to see them snuggled up together. ^^
  So today, I brainstormed a bit. We have two SuperPet pens, one with a shelf and ramp and the other without. I realized that the bar assembly can actually stack on top of the other pen and be secured with zip ties to form a second floor to the first pen. If I strap the upper door into an upright position, they have a trap door type of situation that they can go to the top of the first pen and use it as a floor (with cardboard inserts of course, which I will switch to plexiglass when I go to town next.)
  I am currently cleaning out this first pen (Mimzy’s) and adding Pip’s bar assembly onto it. I am washing everything in straight vinegar and hot water and letting it stand to erase any prior scent so that the two of them feel less territorial. Then I’m going to take the big step and see if they will share the combined cages.
  The nice thing about the trap door arrangement is, that if there’s any scuffling, I can close off the ‘downstairs’ and separate the two buns while leaving them an open area that they can at least sniff each other…but somehow I think it’s not going to be a problem.
  Last night, Pippi was tossing her litterbox and thumping quite a bit. (Or perhaps Mimzy was thumping in answer to the litterbox throwing?) So I removed the litter box, leaving the litter pellets in a corner to show her how displeased I was with the situation. She was quiet the rest of the night. But I am sure the two of them were communicating by ‘bunny morse code’ until they wore down this morning. I heard more foot patting between 11 PM and 8 AM than I have the whole time I’ve had these bunnies.
  At any rate, I think Angela is right. It’s high time they learn to live together 24/7. And I will enjoy not having to clean two cages and worry that one of them is going to topple off the other one when I am not home. This whole setup is going to be much lower in it’s center of gravity than how I’ve had them stacked.
  
  So then….ON TO THE BUNNY-MOON SUITE!
  
  One more thing…I noticed while turning Pippi over the other day and exploring her nether regions for any sign of injury, that I still can’t really tell for sure that she is female. I could’ve sworn that this area looked like ‘outdoor plumbing’ this time. Can someone please link me back to the site that showed bunny gender determination? There were good pix and explanations there and I think I’d better take another good look. (not that I really want to, but I feel funny about calling a bunny ‘she’ if it’s really a ‘he’.)
  Soo…is it possible two males buns have bonded this well? Or am I just hallucinating? 0.o;
  
  Thanks again, everyone!
- 04/18/2008 at 6:06 PM
  RabbitPam
  Moderator
  11002 posts
  http://www.geocities.com/dutchrabbitinfo/sexing.html
  
  MimzMum, Do you mean the link I posted the other day? Here it is if that was the one.
  
  I read your post today about them checking out of the Honeymoon Suite, and I”m sorry it’s harder than you thought.
  
  Is there any way you can put the cages side by side? I see they are stacked on a bureau – but what about setting up a card table so you could get into the drawers underneath yet have the cages side by side for a few more weeks. At least they could see each other. Just an idea.
- 04/18/2008 at 8:38 PM
  MimzMum
  Participant
  8029 posts
  Thanks Pam. Hmmm. (does mental comparison) Well, I think I am probably just seeing things now. ^^; Ah me…it’s been along week!
  
  There really is no way to put the cages side by side. There simply isn’t enough room. I live in a closet, basically, it’s really supposed to be a computer room. The two big bedrooms in the house are occupied by the kids…and all their junk. >_<
  However, we did manage to find the CUTEST outdoor tent setup that will make it MUCH safer for both me and the buns to take our fresh air trips. No mozzies will get through this lovely and there’s plenty of binky room. ^^ I can’t wait for snow to melt to try it!
- 04/19/2008 at 5:09 AM
  RabbitPam
  Moderator
  11002 posts
  Well, I’m sure that they’ll be bonded really soon and the two-instead-of-one cage problem will be solved. Hang in there!
  
  A tent eh? Sounds really fun. “Spring is here, the-a-a sky is blue, whoa whoa whoa, birds all sing as, if they knew….” Everybody sing!
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