Rebonding

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BINKYBUNNY FORUMS

This topic has 6sd replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 17 years ago by Gravehearted.

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- 10/25/2007 at 4:50 PM
  pyrobat
  Participant
  9 posts
  Hey everyone! (Especially the leaders BinkyBunny, Gravehearted, and MooBunnay who helped me out so much before!)
  
  Me and my girlfriend are back on the road to bonding! Rabbits that is! Anyways, earlier (around the end of July 2007) we had recently acquired a new rabbit Attila to be bonded with Koala (both males). Things had looked great, as we were following most every suggestion on this site except one. (Boy was it an important one) Attila was not neutered. Needless to say things were great for a little while. We had them in the same cage, until one day the unthinkable happened. My girlfriend heard some loud noises, saw some fur flying, and Attila was forced out of the cage! (We used spring held clips that thankfully let him be pushed out; who knows what would have happened if he was stuck.)
  
  After the initial scare died down, we posted here for help. First, we had to check for injuries (boy they were hard to find with all that fur). We found one nipped ear on Koala, and a bite near Attila’s throat which we actually didn’t notice for a little bit because he was generally reluctant to show his neck, that when we finally saw it we both were in shock! Second we kept them separate, but close (with proper assurances to make sure they couldn’t nip each other. As an aside, we thought we had a good "defense" until we noticed a bit in Attila’s ear, that’s when we ended up covering both their cages with fine mesh chicken wire!) until Attila could get neutered. We think it was the hormones, combined with the fact that he started to try to assert dominance on Koala (who is a bigger bunny!) that caused a fight to break out. So after a long wait, both till we were sure that Attila was of age and a month to let the hormones die-off, we’ve begun the process anew with a lot more patience.
  
  So, as suggested in the bonding area of this site, we begun switching the cages every so often before even letting them in the same area together. Hopefully this helped them get used to each others’ scents in their area. Then when the fateful day came we tried to introduce them in the bathroom. After the start we thought all hope was lost. Koala seemed to remember the past a little too well, and began lunging at Attila. After a little bit of despair (Our bunnies will NEVER get along!!!) we remembered the car ride "trick!" My roommate was kind enough to drive two concerned bunny owners and their ornery rabbits around town for a bit. Surprisingly (we were ready for them to go right at it in the car) they were thoroughly stressed by the car ride that they sat stunned next to each other. Attila actually hid by Koala and they both allowed it! Amazing!
  
  Now, after that promising ride, we are allowing them to run together in a neutral area with a litter box, chew log, blanket, water bottle, and much supervision. So far it has been going well, though we might need to go for a few car rides every so often. Attila is still trying to assert some dominance by "offering" his head to be groomed. This is in turn ignored by Koala, to which Attila then shoves his head under Koala by his bottom. This is still ignored, though recently when Attila does this Koala starts humping him. (Dominance wars anyone?) However if all else fails for Attila, he tries to hump Koala. Remembering this as a cause for their prior falling out, we don’t let this go on very much though. However, we’re taking our time and letting the car rides work their magic. Though, we do have a few questions.
  
  We know that one has to establish dominance; however we don’t want things to escalate too far and either one to get hurt. When should we intervene, and when should we let them try to sort it out? Also, were a little concerned that when Attila shoves his head under Koala he might be trying to nip at Koala’s genitals. Is this the case, or is it simply him shoving his head underneath him to get attention? We want to try to give them food in their enclosure, but we’re afraid they’ll fight over it. Should we try, or just wait till they get along a little better? Lastly, things are looking up; however is the only way to tell if they properly bonded waiting until they can be alone together without direct supervision (i.e. cooking dinner while they are in neutral space so you could hear if a fight breaks out and stop them)? We just don’t want a repeat of the last time when we thought they we getting along great but deteriorated so quickly.
  
  Sorry about the long post, but I wanted to fill everyone in on the status (with a little background) of everything so (hopefully this doesn’t happen to too many others) if a similar situation happened they could know that it’s happened to a some others as well and know that all hope is not lost!
  
  Thanks again for the help and encouragement!
- 10/26/2007 at 3:05 AM
  BinkyBunny
  Moderator
  8776 posts
  Well, amazingly, things look promising.   I mean, first…two males…quite the challenge…next, they fought visciously…and yet, they are still doing "okay" together with supervision. I mean some bunnies go right at each other right away when they hate each other.
  
  So to answer your questions:
  
  1. When should we intervene, and when should we let them try to sort it out?
  
  You can let them sort it out in non-aggressive ways. Mounting, shoving head under other’s chin (a dominance move to request grooming), and an occasional nip is okay as long as the other one doesn’t retaliate.   Nips are just light bites that don’t break the skin. They are less aggressive than bites, and are more of a show of irritation and/or authority.  But watch for body langauge that shows full blown aggression – ears back flat, tail up, lunging.   There are also some bunnies that will pretend to be fine just so they can get close enough to sink their teeth in deep. So you will have to watch for that. But is doesn’t sound like that’s what is going on.
  
  Also, don’t let a bunny nip all the time, this can make the other bunny begin to be nervous about every approach which can cause a fight. Also, during mounting, the top bunny will most likely nip a bit. That’s normal Just try and push the mouth off if it gets too much, but don’t push the bunny off. Also, allow pet the bunny that is BEING mounted to help comfort him with being the "bottom" bunny. Stop mounting after about 20 seconds and make them give it break for 2 minutes before allowing mounting again. This will help them establish who’s the boss, but not piss of the bottom bunny with too much.
  
  IF no one is willing to be mounted and will fight instead, then don’t allow mounting. Some bunnies will then choose to work it out via nose pushes. which brings me to your next question.
  
  We’re little concerned that when Attila shoves his head under Koala he might be trying to nip at Koala’s genitals. Is this the case, or is it simply him shoving his head underneath him to get attention?
  
  So when you say he shoves his head under Koala, is it under his chin, or under his hind area? If he’s shoving over the hind area, then you do want to stop that, and redirect him to be side by side and allow him to shove under Koala’s chin. You can pick him up and place him next to Kaola if you need to, and pet them both during this.
  
  A dominant bunny will request another bunny to groom him. And HOPEFULLY, the other bunny will oblige as this will help with the bonding process. You might be able to help with this by smearing a bit of banana on Attila’s head, so that Koala will be more inclined to groom him. How does Koala react to Atilla’s request?
  
  We want to try to give them food in their enclosure, but we’re afraid they’ll fight over it.
  
  Some bunnies will become territorial/aggressive over food, litterboxes hideyspaces, while others will look at it as a way to bond, so suggest adding food, but watch carefully.  Amazingly, Rucy and Bailey who could never get along very well, would graciously share their food and then hang out with each other after that. They would instead fight over the litterbox. So, you just can’t predict, you will have to try it out. First bring in greens or pellets and feed them each a foot or so a way from each other.  And then slowly bring them closer over time. If you notice that they are not sharing, but pushing each other or nipping, then of course, for this pair, this wouldn’t work.
  
  Is the only way to tell if they properly bonded waiting until they can be alone together without direct supervision (i.e. cooking dinner while they are in neutral space so you could hear if a fight breaks out and stop them)?
  
  Properly bonded means they can approach and leave each other’s side without incident. That they are relaxed around each other and usually one grooming the other. But this should happen in their territory together. So just because it may happen in a neutral territory, or semineutral territory doesn’t mean they will be harmonious in what they consider "their" space. The best way to make this transition is to rearrange and clean their space so much that neither of them recognize it.
  
  You should be able to "feel" comfortable enough to do the dishes, cleaning, watch tv, just general stuff around the house. But if their body language and interactions are still making you nervous, then of course you are still stuck supervising.
  
  If you have a chance to spend the whole weekend at home bonding, then you can see how they react during long bouts.
  
  Hope this helps!
- 11/01/2007 at 1:40 AM
  pyrobat
  Participant
  9 posts
  Thanks, BinkyBunny, for your detailed response! The information has helped out immensely these past few days. It’s been an interesting few as well. I have just a few things of note to report (as well as some responses to your questions!)
  
  1. The mounting seems to be dying down! Koala seems like he would merely ignore the ‘advances’ of Attila. After a little bit, Koala would merely run away or under my leg in order to knock the offender off of his back. Of course Attila being a little stubborn would continue, which was when (after letting it go on for a bit) we would intervene and place them side by side. I think Attila is slowly getting the hint.
  
  2. They can eat vegetables together! I tried what you suggested, and now I can have a central veggie pile and they’ll eat side by side (sometimes) no problem. Exciting news, however I think I found the Achilles heel in the relationship.
  
  3. There was a fight. (BOOOOOO!!!!!) I thought I would add a little variety to the area by putting a tunnel (long 8in diameter cardboard tube) in the pen. Either it was perceived as "MY" property by the bunnies (it is in the common play area in my room so both the rabbits run through it solo), or one bunny scared the other. Either way, the result was not pretty. It seems hidey-spaces are what they’ll fight over. One… then the next bunny ran in, and all I heard were sounds of a scuffle. I titled them out (the inside is slippery) and they immediately went at it. I stopped them (unfortunately my gloves weren’t around and I suffered a minor bite on the hand) calmed them down, and oddly enough they were fine around each other. Maybe when I checked for injuries it stressed them out enough, who knows?
  
  4. Koala shortly groomed Attila. This occurred after the fight (so hopefully a sign that their improving), however I saw Koala lick Attila on the head for a little bit. Maybe I’m reading too much into this but I was really excited about this. OH! This was not banana inspired grooming either. I tried that (Koala does like his bananas) but all I ended up with was a bunny with some banana hair gel. It seemed that Koala does not like banana flavored bunny hair.
  
  There have been no super long bonding sessions; however I have been trying to give them at least 30 minutes, if not an hour and a half or more a day with each other. As for close supervision, I was backed off for a little bit, but revamped my watch after the fight. So, with positive signs of somewhat grooming, I think I will very slowly start to back off again. Hopefully I can get some good pictures of them eating vegetables together, it’s really cute!
  
  p.s. Until that little bit of grooming, Koala had mostly ignored Attila’s requests. Occasionally Koala would push his head to the ground so that Attila could not get under him. After either being ignored or unable to force his head under Koala’s, Attila would move to Koala’s backside.
- 11/02/2007 at 8:02 PM
  Scarlet_Rose
  Participant
  4293 posts
  It sounds like progress! Congrats! Keep up the great work and patience!
- 11/12/2007 at 11:37 AM
  pyrobat
  Participant
  9 posts
  Just a quick status update! (Lately I’ve been swamped so sorry about the duration between each)
  
  There has been a little regression. I’ve let the two run together for a longer period of time, and they started to scrap! Afterwards, it seems that I can’t give them vegetables in the enclosure anymore. They used to eat and get along, but now it seems like Attila was trying to eat the vegetables out of Koala’s mouth (ala the Lady and the Tramp, replacing the spaghetti with parsley.)! Koala didn’t like that one bit, and they started fighting again. So we’re back to shorter, more supervised bonding sessions and their favorite car. I’ll try to keep up (after this week things should die down a bit) and let you guys and gals know how things go.
  
  p.s. here’s some pictures of the two! Koala is the spotted one. Attila is the "oh so innocent" one.
  
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- 11/12/2007 at 11:46 AM
  Beka27
  Participant
  16016 posts
  lol… Koala looks so comfy! i love the pictures!
- 11/12/2007 at 3:00 PM
  Gravehearted
  Participant
  2428 posts
  I’m sorry to hear it’s still not going smoothly, but it sounds like you’re being patient and working with them through it. It’s good that you’re trying things like stress bonding car rides too, sending lots of good bonding wishes your way. please keep us updated too.
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