Mimzy’s breathing more distressed, help please?

[MimzMum]

Hey guys, having a scare here:

I’ll just post what I mailed to BB just now, to save time. Any questions, I’ll be checking back to see what answers are here. Thanks!

As you may know, Mimzy’s been sneezing and wheezing all week and tonight he’s starting to put his nose up in the air and then he sneezes and washes his face, I think there may be something beginning to obstruct his airway. Then he sits down and acts like nothing is wrong and seems fine. He even tooth purrs when I pet his head.
I am completely unsure that I could perform the ‘bunny Heimlich” if I needed to as I just can’t picture it visually in my mind, not to mention he would flip out and squirm free. Is there anything else I can do to help him? I’ve already told my husband (at work) that we may need to put him in the carrier and rush to the ER vet, but they aren’t exotic vets. I am hoping this can wait till first thing tomorrow for our regular vet. He has small moments of distress and then seems totally normal.
Will a saline spray help him now? I can’t be sure it’s an obstruction, at the very least he must be congested and maybe a post-nasal drip thing is going on.
 

He is fine for the moment, but I am worried something else may happen during the night. I already know I’m not going to get a wink. Has anyone dealt with anything like this before? And can the bunny Heimlich be described here again please? (does anyone have video of it?)

Thanks guys!

 

[BinkyBunny]

I also sent this to the other leaders.   This does sound scary, and I have no idea what could be wrong – because he seems like, from your description, putting his nose up, it makes me think that it’s his bodies way to get air – so  I don’t have anything to add as a replacement for vet care. So, of course, my answer is to see a vet in this case.

I did find however Dana Krempels description on how to do the heimlich

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/pet-rabbit-gagging-Rabbit.htm

I’m sending hugs and health vibes!!!  I know that can’t seem very comforting right now.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

I wouldn’t worry about the emergency vet not being great with exotics, as what would need to be immediately treated is airway abstructions and any vet should be able to do that. The cause, well you’ll likely have to see your regular vet.

If it came down to ‘bunny cpr’ I wouldn’t worry about the heimlich maneuver, but you can cup your hand so it’s covering the whole mouth/nose area and breath into his mouth. You can also massage his chest. I belive you can feel for a heart beat through the ears so if he has one, no need to chest massage.

If he seems to be getting worse, a non-bunny savy vet is better then no vet, and I know it’s a drive so I’d pack him up and take him in. They could probably flush his ducts and check airways which would solve the immediate dilema

{{MIMZY}}

[Cassi&Charlie]

(((Mimzy)))

I dont have anything to add but I agree that non-exotics is better than no vet if he’s got an airway obstrution. Keep us updated!

[MimzMum]

Thanks, Jen and Lesley! Going to check out the Heimlich. As of now, he seems fine, no breathing problems whatsoever and he’s been sitting out on my bed for an hour. I gave him a full bunny body massage, let him tool around on the covers, annoy Fiver…the usual.
So far, he is acting like I’m the one who needs to see a dr. because he is behaving totally normal right now. But the whole incident reminds me of something…
Has anyone ever gotten a ping pong ball put in their gas tank by a prankster? If so, you know that when the gas gets low enough in the tank, POW! Car dies, no fuel to the engine. When the gas is full, the ball can’t get to the intake, so the car runs fine. It’s almost like that with Mimzy…one minute he’s fine, the next he seems to be sneezing, wheezing and poking his nose in the air. Next minute, nothing. I am completely bewildered.

Rest assured, he has any more trouble tonight and he’s going in, exotic savvy or not. I won’t hesitate. For now, though, he is laying in his pen looking at me like I’ve lost my mind…totally flopped out with his legs stuck out behind him and cool.

Ugh…stress…don’t need anymore right now… >_<

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

**HUGS** I know you surely don’t!! My goodness! Ok, well keep us posted!

And no never had that happen not even heard of it-what a goofy prank

[Binkles]

Lol Mimz…that, I think, is a prank localized to only a few people in this world…xD

Though it makes sense in analogy.

I can’t contribute much to this situation practically, but I can tell you that you and Mimzy are definitely in my prayers.

*huggles both*

[Binkles]

(Bumping this post above mine, because this definitely needs more attention!!)

[sasnpipp]

Sorry, I can’t see the previous posts on this, so…  

First off, he’s probably breathing through his mouth when he’s raising his head, and that is a serious concern with rabbits.

Do his gums look pink or are they blue or paler than usual?

Has he been to see the vet about the sneezing and wheezing to begin with? Is his nose running? Blowing any snot? If so, what colour?

Does his chest/breathing sound congested?

What is he usually doing when the mouth breathing starts happening?

How old is he and what breed is he?

How are his poops and urine output? Any change? Any lethargy?

It could be an upper respiratory infection, in which case he could use antibiotics ASAP, a nebulizer (steam), and maybe even a little suction to take snot out of his nose, etc.

It could be allergies, but unlikely.

It could also be an abscess that has invaded his nasal cavity or sinuses or whatever, and he’ll heed a head x-ray to catch that one.

If it’s more of a dry problem, rabbits will also breath through their mouths if they have lung tumors, heart congestion and other internal problems.

Off hand I’d say if his gums are blue or white, head to the ER. Any vet can give him oxygen and other stabilizing treatments. Otherwise if you can hold off until morning, an exam including head and chest x-rays (unless the vet feels it’s an URI) are probably in order, again depending on the results of the exam.

(EDIT:  I can’t get the search to work nor the posts function in the profile, but I can now see he’s a young Holland, thus I’d be more inclined to rule out heart and lung issues, other than infection, and more inclined to think upper respiratory tract infection or tooth root/head abscess issue.  Has he ever had dental issues?  Has he changed the way he eats lately in any way?) 

EDIT 2:  I’m the Admin and Infirmary Mod on another rabbit forum, we see a lot of sick bunnies go through there, but I’m not a vet. 

Hope he’s okay.

sas

[jerseygirl]

sasnpipp, I wondered what your background was…you’ve been very helpful and knowledgable in prevoius posts and above! If I can chime in for MimzMum, Mimzy has had molar issues but MM replied the other day that they seem to have settled.

MM, you had began to suspect the heat being too high at home. Does it operate on a thermostat? Just wondering if you notice Mimzys breathing when the heat is on to bring it up to temperature. Thinking maybe as the temp falls again, his breathing improves – hence the on and off pattern you’re noticing to his breathing struggles….It’s a bit mysterious.

Hope he’s okay too!

[RabbitPam]

Just reading this and it’s morning now, so not much longer before you can take him in to a vet.
I was thinking steam, too. It couldn’t hurt.

I woke up feeling awful in my throat, high chest, and had runny eyes, even ears were sweating. I think it’s the time of year now for lots of infections, colds, and allergies. Animals & people alike. Take him in to the general vets for some immediate relief or supplies for when it happens again and instructions on how to help him.

Then lie down yourself, because it’s been one stressful week.
((((((((((((healing vibes, Mimzy; resting vibes MM }}}}}}}}}}}}}}

[Beka27]

i’m thinking about you Mimz. let us know how he is this morning, please!

(((((((((((Mimzy!)))))))))))

[MimzMum]

First, thanks to everyone for their well wishes and to sas for your exemplary advice, I have not seen you here before, but I am certainly glad to have someone so knowledgeable onboard. Thank you!
I sat up with Mimzy all night, up to about 4-5 a.m. my time, it’s now almost 10. He appears to be perfectly fine and I am flummoxed as to how to proceed.
I will still phone the vet today to see if he should be seen. I think having supplies onhand is a better idea than just sitting around and waiting for the next attack to hit and be unprepared.

BB your idea about when the heat comes on triggering the breathing problems may be spot on. I hadn’t noticed if it was that, and we have boiler heat here, so it doesn’t circulate by forced air but through baseboard vents that run hot water and radiate heat, but it is SO dry here. I was also looking at a post about static shock that is a big problem here as well…the bunnies have to furiously wash their ears every time I give head pets, as the static builds up and irritates their ears.

I think it’s GOt to be something he sniffed up his nose, or possibly the dog being in the house…perhaps his dander is causing Mimzy’s trouble? Except for these episodes, he seems completely normal and is in no other distress whatsoever. I would think if it was an infection, he’d have goop coming from somewhere, but he’s totally clean. (and I do mean clean…he is washing himself about every few minutes it seems like)

The worst thing is that, since hubby has reopened his business, he needs to make a run to town this morning and I am not sure I can get the vet to take me in right away. So I may be having to make him make two trips. Not fun for either of us. But I just can’t feel good about a ‘wait and see’ attitude.

So…steam…just a pot of hot water in the room? (we used to place water to boil on the woodstove years ago, but we haven’t used that for humidity in years-and it hasn’t fired up this year at all) Mimzy doesn’t have to have his head hanging over it, does he?
Off to make that phone call. THanks again everyone!

[LittlePuffyTail]

I just read this post today and I’m anxious to hear what the vet says.

Sending some {{{{{Get better for Momma}}}}}} vibes out to Mimzy.

Isn’t it insane the amount of stress we go through for a little critter who weighs 4 pounds??? They are worth all the stress in the world though, the little buggers. 

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Easiest way to humidify would be to run the shower without the fan on for a while. The other thing I’ve seen people do is put soaked sponges or glasses of water on/near the heat vents

{{Mimzy}}

[RabbitPam]

I’m just throwing out inane ideas here, but maybe you could drop a sheet over his cage first. Then steam up some hot water, even a kettle boiled then poured into a wide bowl, and set it on the floor under the sheet. It would steam up his space, contain it, and block any flying dander from his house too.

I had a nap for 1.5 hours this morning sitting up. Just fell asleep. It helped a lot to be upright and much of my stuff drained away. Phew. I picture him raising his head to get a clear passageway and a good swallow of what ails him.

You could keep a spray bottle handy and mist your hands before you pet, or mist above their heads so they have some falling moisture in the air. I do think your hubby could be appealed to and have the thermostat lowered just a bit. Too hot is bad for bunnies and doesn’t kill germs.

[sasnpipp]

Posted By MimzMum on 01/26/2009 11:12 AM
I think it’s GOt to be something he sniffed up his nose, or possibly the dog being in the house…perhaps his dander is causing Mimzy’s trouble? Except for these episodes, he seems completely normal and is in no other distress whatsoever. I would think if it was an infection, he’d have goop coming from somewhere, but he’s totally clean. (and I do mean clean…he is washing himself about every few minutes it seems like) 

.

 

None of my Bridge bunnies showed signs of illness.   I’m not saying this to alarm you, just as a caution for everybody.  They hide their illnesses very very well.  When I lost Dill, he was his perky little self until a few hours before he slightly tilted, a few hours later he was gone.  A necropsy showed he had very advanced cancer.  Scooter died from an infection with a piece of parsley in his mouth.  He stopped chewing, went glassy-eyed and was gone in minutes

The fact that he’s grooming himself — especially if it start with his face — can be a sign of discomfort. 

I’d strongly urge a head x-ray and/or blood work.  I’m seeing so many tooth root and other abscesses these days,  a number of them with these exact symptoms, that would be my main concern.  They ere misdiagnosed more often than not, too.

In most cases they can be cleared up with strong, injectable antibiotics.

Good luck with him.  

[BinkyBunny]

sasnpip – Thank you so much for helping us out here! The overall search bar should soon be deleted off the site, it doesn’t work. But the search in the “green” bar should work. Let me know if you have problems with that in the tech section or email me. Also, you said…”nor the posts function in the profile” doesn’t work. What happens? You can email me this as well or post in the tech section so we can get that resolved.

Mimzmum – keep us updated!

[jerseygirl]

I ditto the dental xrays, especially given Mimzys passed molar issues.

Also, on the heat/dryness thing, where is Mimzys cage normally?  Is there a variation in temperature in the bedroom?  Reason I ask is you say he is fine whilst out on your bed. 

Mimzy, you better improve boy! You are freaking us all out!

[KatnipCrzy]

It all depends on what type of heat you use- as to what your options are for adding humidity to the air. One of the simplest is to put Mimzy in the bathroom with you when you shower- as long as he is not scared and the floor is not too slippery- if he can rest calmly he can breathe in the humid air.

If you do use a woodstove- you can just put a pan of water or tea kettle on. My Mom has a woodstove that she always has going during the day and when we were up there at Christmas time within a day I was miserable from super dry sinus and dry skin. She put a pot of water on and the next day it was 2/3rds gone. Granted it was only a 2 quart pot- but still that is a lot of water! And it did help.

Another option is the humidifier like others have mentioned.

But I guess most importantly it will be best to find out the cause and to see if there are any meds that can help- antibiotics, bronchio-dilators, antihistamines? Not that drugs are preferable to more natural treatments- but it makes me think it is something specific with Mimzy if the other rabbits are not showing similiar symptoms from dry air.

I know there are meters to measure the humidity- the are usually with a temp gauge. That might be a good start and a way to monitor it th dry air does factor and at what level.

[Cassi&Charlie]

(((Mimz)))

[MimzMum]

LPT…4.6 lbs to be exact. ^_^ He gained an ounce since the last time he was seen in December.

Well, after a harrowing day, Mimz is home and seems to be completely normal once more. With the exception that the minute I put him back in his totally clean pen, he began sneezing again.

The doc took four different xrays: torso (chest) and three head shots. She can find NO sign of URI, stasis, infection, abscess, tooth problems or anything in his trachea, nose or sinuses.

Her only explanation is allergies or asthma. (can bunnies get asthma??)

I would guess she is right about the allergies from what I observed tonight. Not a problem with him at the vet, no sign of wheezing or coughing or sneezing. In the car to and from, completely fine. Sitting on my bed for an hour before going back in his pen, not a hint of discomfort. The minute he’s back in his night pen (and I THOROUGHLY washed, rinsed and dried that sucker before going to pick him up at the vet) he starts making some snuffly noises, that goes away, then a while later he is wheezing and sneezing again, off and on, nothing constant and he did put his nose up again once. Seems to get worse as he eats. (it did occur to me that maybe he is honking? but it sounds more like wheezing when he’s not eating)
He has Alfalfa King Timothy hay and just a smattering of alfalfa (KayTee brand) on his pen floor. (I got the alfalfa just as a treat hay, not for heavy consumption, just in case he was reluctant to eat when he got home for any reason.)

Problem is, the timothy hay was the same one in his carrier all day. If there was an allergy to that, wouldn’t it have manifested at the vets?

Could he be developing an allergy to the plastic parts of his pen? After two years?? I wash it with vinegar and water, once a week with a light bleach solution which I wash out thoroughly. The only other thing I use is a Swiffer cloth each day to keep the loose fur down. But there was no need for that today after washing the pen out the way I did.

Also he did have a little isoflurane ( < sp? ) to make him sleepy while they took the radiographs. He was fully awake when I picked him up and they say he should have no residual effects…but should I keep an eye out for anything?

All those suggestions are very good! I never thought of taking him into the bathroom while I shower…it gets awfully hot in there though. Is that safe? I think the spray bottle can be arranged (although I keep one at bedside for litter box tossing suppression) and sadly, I was so glad to get his xrays back as clean I didn’t press for bloodwork. But I would think the vet would’ve suggested that if she thought it was necessary, as I had already initialed my consent.

*sigh* I never see him do this in the summer, when we have fresh air blowing through the house. My guess is, he’s the proverbial canary in the coal mine and is picking up something I can’t sense. I just have to keep working till I find out what it is.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

I agree with the Canary thing. He may not be exhibiting symptoms at the vets as maybe he’s full of adreneline-does that impact broncial tubes? Not sure…

Gosh, Mimz, what if he is honking? Expensive vet visits for honky bun LOL Ok, but seriously….what about that febreeze allergen reducer and a purifier? Maybe treat the house like your kids have allergies and see what goes of it?

[MimzMum]

Eh…I don’t do Febreeze…no matter whether it’s urban legend or not, I just don’t trust that stuff. But I do still have the link to that BIOS air purifier that one of our kind members turned me onto. I may have to budget for that. Currently I use the Nature’s Miracle Dander treatment when I think it’s getting to a breaking point for any of us in here.

Yuh, I was thinking honking….jeez! But it does seem like he’s sneezing and wheezing and allergic to something in the house and it COULD just be the stale air we have all winter, because I can’t remember him sneezing like this in summer. Sooo….

I just checked sneezing bunny at Dana’s Experts’ site and it totally flew out of my head to ask the vet if I could dose him with pediatric benadryl…why not?? Could it hurt him to try? Anyone know the dose? (I’d have to get some first.)

Of course, it did cross my mind that perhaps he is allergic to one of the other bunnies? 0_o That would stink.
Can’t be the dog, he was around dogs all day today at the vets.

[jerseygirl]

I thought I had read about benadryl and allergies before. It was in LPT’s recent thread about Bindi’s ear infection.

ChrisL1976    Posts: 21

01/16/2009 2:43 AM Quote Reply Alert  How often does he get these ear infections?  During what times of the year?   One of our rabbits is pretty prone to gettting them as well. Especially during allergy season.  Our vet actually recommended to put him on Childrens Benedryl since the ear infection seem to be related to possibly allergies. We do a weekly does and just put it on one of his treats and it has cut back the frequency of the ear infection drastically.

 

Can you take out all hay for a few hours then reintroduce one by one?  Is this regular hay he has?  Or is it same type but new batch?  Maybe there’s something about the hay that’s triggering this, or pellets?

[RabbitPam]

If I’m reading this right, he started up once he was back in his room and in his cage.
I’m thinking the stages method as well, since it does sound like allergies.

You said he’s fine in your bedroom on your bed. Only when he’s back in his house does he start up. That suggests it’s in his room, or his cage.
The first thing you could try is move his cage into your bedroom for a day. If he’s fine, it’s probably in that room. If he’s not, than you’ve brought it in with him and you can work on the allergens in the cage.

Even though it’s clean, it could be the bleach, or the vinegar. But my guess is that it’s either the hay or some imbedded allergen in the cage itself. Is it on a carpet, BTW? If the most likely culprit is a hay or food, then he won’t suffer if you cut out one for 24 hrs., such as removing ALL hay from his cage and then watching him. Because if it’s the litter (and that’s possible since the hay was in his carrier) it will continue to bother him. It could even be the pellets.

If he’s in the path of air that blows allergens onto him, even if it doesn’t look it, you could change his cage’s placement next. Like put it up on a table for a day and see if he still sneezes. He just might be in the path of something that blows on him, but blows away with the open window in the good weather. Can he swap places with one of the other buns, like Fiver, and see if he’s better and if (God forbid) the other one is worse? That would mean it’s the room and the placement.

Try changing the litter for a day. Watch him for sneezes.
It might be time for a new cage, no matter which he’s allergic to.
Maybe the dog needs to be kept out of his room. But dog’s dander, or anything else, may be blowing out of the vents.

Allergies in people are cumulative. Mild to dust, mild to pepper, mild to eggs for example: but eat eggs with pepper in a dusty room and suddenly you have a big allergy attack. So it could be a dry heat/timothy hay/alfalfa/litter combo that sets him off. From the sound of it, I think it’s one allergen that you’ll be able to isolate. The good news is that it’s nothing major, so you know what to do next.

[MimzMum]

I have to ask another question. Since Mimzy was not tested for Pasturella yesterday, is it possible he could have that nasty bug, but recover from attacks of it by himself, only to have it recur when triggered? Or is it pretty much a thing that once they exhibit symptoms it only gets worse and never better without treatment? The last time he had sneezing and wheezing issues, it was last October and he just blew out a big on piece of snot and was fine after that. (I am also wondering if it is weather change that could be initiating this, since we had those lovely trades visit us from Hawaii a few weeks ago and now it’s all cold again? October is generally the time of year when we go from mild weather to freezing cold-I had trouble myself back then.)

I had to watch him snuffle and wheeze again last night and it just tore me into pieces. I notice it stopped on it’s own again and he seemed fine most of the night. I did take him out on the bed again for about 45 minutes to just snuggle and he puddles right up and enjoys his head rubs and seems to be the happiest bunny in the world. No other symptoms after I put him in his cage that I could see (of course it was about 2-3 in the morning, so I passed out-but he was fine this a.m.)

I notice he’s starting to reject his pellets, which he eats on the shelf of his night pen. I find a smattering of them in the dish in the morning, today it filled the bottom of the dish. I’ve seen him wash his face or scratch his cheek furiously after eating them, then sometimes he’ll go into a wheezing fit right afterward. But most of the time he’s on his bottom floor and I’ll hear that snuffly sound coming from what appears to be his nose. He still has no real discharge, just a mild, clear wetness under his nostrils. I have tried switching hays already and it doesn’t appear to be one or the other, granted I have not removed it for a whole day, as he tends to have very small poops if he doesn’t get hay all day and that scares me almost worse than the sneezing. He does switch up which one he prefers…one serving he likes no seedheads, the next he wants them, so…

I’ve thought it could be one of his greens he’s suddenly taken allergy to…I gave him a small carrot piece and some Italian parsley this morning…nothing. He gobbled them both up and promptly flopped out on his side for a snooze. No nose noises. He just…I dunno…he has this look in his eye that just seems to say he’s miserable about something sometimes. Then when he thinks he’s getting attention, he hops right up and is all perky.

I also lowered his sippy bottle for him yesterday. I was afraid he was choking water down the wrong way. He’s able to drink easier, but it has had no effect on the nasal problem.

His pen is on my dresser in my bedroom, it always has been. (the dog is way in the back of the house, no real vents to speak of that his dander could blow through, we don’t have forced air heat) When Mimzy was gone yesterday I swept everything down and washed out his night pen. Pip’s pen is above his, stacked on top of his pen wire roof, and I made sure I kept hers clean to excess also. (no excuse not to, she tends to throw her litter box if things gets too messy) Fiver’s pen is across the room (a distance of about 4 – 5 feet) and his is easy to tidy, he sleeps on that 40 winks mattress and I launder that with hypoallergenic soap every other day. I’ve been doing my best to keep his shed hair down so it doesn’t drift over to Mimzy’s side.

I have to say, we do have a dust problem in this house, there is no keeping up with it. The next day after you dust everything, it’s all back. It makes me feel ill too, and I need a solution that will work for all of us there. (I’m thinking a new house would be nice and the hubby tells me he’s working on it.) In the meantime, I just try to maintain certain areas that need it most.

I don’t know…I am just so frustrated. I want to try that Benadryl though, so I’m going to call my vet today and ask for a dosage. If that improves him, I have to assume it’s an allergy, but to what will be a long drawn out process. I am even wondering if it is something I am bringing in on me…I don’t wear perfumes, but I do gel and spray my hair from time to time and that may be bothering him. I’ve been showering every night BEFORE I clean their pens so I dont’ bring in any doggie stuff. (Maybe too much soap smell??) And I have to keep cream on my hands to stop the dryness from causing my fingers to snap off, perhaps I am getting that on his food and he’s snuffling that up (although for the most part I am careful to put lotion on AFTER feedings, I could’ve screwed that up with the rush to do so many things lately).

I am mostly worried that there is some pathogen at work that is going to need further testing. I shelled out about $400 yesterday for that emergency visit and am not eager to pay more if it is not indicated. But I keep thinking, maybe Pip had something she carried in with her from the pet store over a year ago that’s only now manifesting? Or Fiver did? Even the two bunnies Mimzy was dumped with almost two years ago…I remember the second REW we had no luck in catching did not look too good right before snow hit and I still feel bad we didn’t get him caught and rehomed…but maybe that’s why they were dropped off? Not that someone was leaving state and looking for an easy dump, but that maybe they had all tested positive for something and the people didn’t want to deal with it? 0_o

I am not sleeping well…pleases forgive my rambling. If you guys have any other ideas, please post…I am running out of them.

[Sarita]

Honestly it’s possible he could have any nasty bug – Pasturella is not the only upper respiratory disease that rabbits can get and it might be a combination of pasturella and other bacteria. There is no way to know without a culture if that is what it is. Certainly keeping a rabbit’s area clean and the rabbits life stress free will help keep them less susceptible to illness. And also just because one of your rabbits has this (or anything else) does not mean the rest have it too.

[BinkyBunny]

For those that might know more about pasturella, would less air flow make it worse? Or what would make pasturella worse only during the winter months IF that was cause.

Mimz – let us know what happens after you give the vets recommended dose of allergy meds. Was there any particular reason that the vet felt it was not an infection?  Did I miss that somewhere with my speed reading! 

Hang in there!
 

[MimzMum]

Thanks Sarita. Well, I would guess it wouldn’t hurt, when I take them all in again soon to have nail trims, to see aobut having him tested for it. Does he have to be knocked out or can the doc just wipe a swab in his nose?

She’s going to call me back about the Benadryl, but warns he can’t be with other rabbits because it will make him sleepy and he could get hurt by them jumping around him. >.< Mimzy is almost asleep all the time anyway, now I'm going to have to deal with him being completely non-communicative?? *sigh*

I searched and found a few interesting things online about bunnies with ‘allergies’. The first is a message board post from the UK from some house bunny people, the second one is about two bunnies who were in a house fire and their lungs were compromised by the smoke. (we have boiler heat, I know that stupid thing belches soot from time to time) I hope the Benadryl will help him, but if it doesn’t, we may need to look elsewhere.

Oh, and Pam, yes I do notice he doesn’t do well with vinegar smell. (no, there’s none on my breath) Our vinegar seems to get nastier smelling just sitting in the bottle on the shelf. (probably the house heat again) I may have to scale down the mixture to 1/3 vinegar and 2/3 water. Considering I used a water bleach solution for his cage yesterday though, I don’t understand why he was sneezing still.

And yes, I think he’s stressed. He hasn’t really had time out with Pip lately (with all this nasal trouble, I was afraid to bunk them together anyway) but his special time out on the bed a few times a day seems to be helping that a bit. He’s not a bunny who is into ‘toys’, so nothing I give him provides any relief from boredom except the change of scenery.

One more thing, I am pretty sure my room doesn’t ventilate well. Even with the door open. I don’t want to circulate any other irritants, but perhaps having the fan on day and night will help? It’s worth a try.

EDIT: You beat me to the post Binky…lolz. Anyway, the doctor only took xrays yesterday, no bloodwork or swabs. I was too frazzled to ask her again for them, even though I had authorized them when I dropped him off. So that was my bad. But all his radiographs turned up clean, no spurs, no abscesses, no signs of infection or pneumonia.

Here’s those linkies:

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=123591&page=2

http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/benadryl.html

Yet another EDIT: And while I’m typing this, I can hear my cat scratching in his litterbox. If the bathroom is even in anotehr part of the house from the bedroom, but the air flow in the house is not great, could the clay dust actually drift in and irritate the bunnies? Maybe that’s coming in on my clothes and he is sensitive to it? (the hosuecats’ box in in there only because feral kitty’s living in the boiler room now, where the housecats’ box USUALLY is…so I’m thinking that I should try to get my cats to use some other litter.)

[RabbitPam]

Me again.
I’ve read all of the above, and I’m thinking the next thing to try is the most obvious, ie. remove the pellets.
It sounds like you’ve narrowed it down to pellets, hand lotions, soot, cat litter in the air, or vinegar.

I think the pellets gone from his cage for 2 days may make a difference. If it does, try a new brand, type or none at all. Also, during that time, get some cheap disposable gloves to hold his food with. They sell about 50 in a bag at the grocery store for a few dollars. They are the thin things like Dr.s use. That will keep the smell of your products off of his food.

It does sound like it’s more specific than air borne, because he’d be in distress for longer and consistently. It could be some weird food allergy, like soy in the pellets, so he builds up some mucus then sneezes. I’m guessing, but with allergies you can do a one-at-a-time removal to find it. An air filtering fan may help all of you, too. The reason I switched to the white Care Fresh litter with Spockie was because of my own allergies and his sensitive hocks, so the right changes can work.

[MimzMum]

Yeah, I used to pad his floor with white Carefresh, but even that has too much dust and as he would dig in it, he would sneeze. It wasn’t like this sneezing though, that makes him point his nose. But since I have to use it for Fiver, I wonder if the dust is still floating over to him?

Those gloves are an excellent idea, Pam, I will put them on my shopping list.

These pellets are the same ones that I had to remove from Pip because she began having serious leftover cecal issues. I don’t give those to her at all anymore. I tried adding a few of the Peter’s pellets to Mimzy’s dish, but he eats around them…sooo…we try some other brand, as he LOVES munching his pellets all night. (I have ordered some Oxbow.) I’m also thinking maybe hay cubes, if I can find some he’ll eat that don’t mess wit his teeth too much, to help supplement the hay that he may be having trouble with. (I know, cubes have no long stems, but…he’s got to have something.)

I figured the cat litter because, with the box in the bathroom, if they use it while I’m in there, the dust clings to me, I carry it to the buns…BAM! I am also going to start documenting his sneezing episodes and what I am doing/what he is experiencing just before they happen.

Thinking back, I think these fits are more concentrated in the evenings. So I’ll focus on that time of day in particular.

GAWD, I can’t wait for breakup! 0_o Spring can’t get here soon enough for me this year! *tugs futilely on frozen window*

[RabbitPam]

Aha. Any chance that Fiver can give up the CareFresh? It’s in the same room. Also, if Pip had trouble with those pellets, I’m glad you’re going to try Oxbow. I’ve been using the Bunny Basics-T for a few years now. It’s the ground timothy hay, which was why I tried it when Spockie wouldn’t go for straight hay.

You know, just say to heck with it and toilet train the whole bunch. Teach ’em to drive while you’re at it so they can run to the store for more TP.

[MimzMum]

LMAO! You have no idea how JEALOUS I am when I watch AFV and see cats who can ACTUALLY use the toilet! They do their business, they flush…and THEY DON’T LEAVE THE SEAT UP! xD

I had a great picture of a cat sitting in a man’s pants who was in the loo (nothing too riske…the cat was using the pants around his ankles as a hammock) I wish I could find it!

Well, if Fiver can’t use Carefresh, then how do I keep his hocks from breaking and bleeding?? 0_o;

[BinkyBunny]

Mimz – I had just seen the other post by bunnymama regarding how her vet told her how warm temps(inside as well)  can make bunnies sneeze (interesting and I want to look into that) and how her bunny’s symptoms were similar to mimz,  –  I am wondering if you had time to experiment with that since you said in that post that the house could get rather warm.

[MimzMum]

I have to talk to my husband about how low we can put the thermostat and still have the boiler work properly. Plus even with it down, this room is the one in the house that tends to hold heat TOO well. So I’m putting in a fan or possibly an air purifier. Ventilation is apprently key as well.
Since Mimzy’s pen is below Pip’s (I’ve tried putting him above her, he gets much too hot up there as the heat rises…Pip doesn’t like it much either, but she seems to tolerate it better than he and I try to keep the room in general at no higher than 75 degrees F) I wonder if the air just isn’t flowing well in there. His pen doesn’t ‘seem’ stuffy, (I’ve put my head in there while cleaning and I can still breathe okay), but since we’re into the hard part of winter, I have to guess that the confinement alone could be getting to him. I KNOW it’s getting to Pip, hence her almost continuous litter box tossing of late.

Pam, if Fiver’s pen is right next to my bed (with the Carefresh in it) and Mimzy is on the bed next to Fiver’s cage, shouldn’t he be sneezing there as well? 0_o

[MimzMum]

Well, as of tonight, I have only heard him snuffle once and that was when I had the door shut while the kids were arguing (hard to hear your bun’s breathing when there are screeching voices nearby) and I took out the hay with seedheads and am keeping his box clean each time he uses it and sweeping his floor with only water.

Something has to be working right! ^_^

[BinkyBunny]

Oh, that sounds good. I’m keeping my finger crossed that he continues to feel better – whatever the problem is.

[MimzMum]

I haven’t been able to be with him as much today, but I did sit in my room from about 4 PM on and promptly at 5:30 PM, just like yesterday, he starts sneezing. The only difference I can see if the change in temperature in the room at that time. You can feel a bit of a cold draft coming from the window, but otherwise the room is pretty warm. If he sneezes again at around 7 PM when the temperature changes again, I’ll know that’s what it is.
Even the feral kitty can be in there on the bed in all her dustiness and he doesn’t sneeze. No sign of wheezing today either.

Another thing that was new last week, the buns were all fed broccoli. Can certain vegetables cause sneezing in bunnies? I haven’t given him any more this week.

[jerseygirl]

Think I’m on same page as rabbitpam at the moment: Pellets. Possiblities, seasonal variation in ingredients, new additive in ingredients (most don’t advertise they’ve made these changes).

From previous posts I’m thinking you feed Kaytee Timothy pellets as main and give another type as treat? Your last post in Pips cecal thread you said you picked up Peters rabbit pellets. That was on the 15th and you started posting about Mimzy’s difficulties on the 20th…..do you give him some of these new pellets? Oh, and is it Marshall Pet Peter’s Rabbit pellets?

When do you give pellets to the buns?

[MimzMum]

Pellet time is right before bed (usually about 11 PM) and they munch on them all night…well the boys do…Pip powers through hers (especially since I’ve cut her back) and drops the crock as loudly as she can on the pen floor, scaring poor Mimz to death in the process.

Yes the new pellets are the Marshall’s brand. But sadly, Mimzy turned his nose up at them immediately. So I put him back on the Kaytee brand. But I have NOT been happy with the quality of their products lately. I’ve found a number of strange things in these pellets of late (things that shouldn’t be in ANYONE’S food) and the ratio of pellet to pellet dust is ridiculously in favor of the dust. Since I don’t have time to bake bunny cookies with the powder I find at the near bottom of the bag, I am winding up throwing out the last third of it.

I just ordered some Oxbow from West Coast Pet…the items I ordered from Dr.s F&S has not gotten here yet. (shipped out the 14th and I’m still waiting…I did email them)
An expensive few months for bunnies and bunny slave. Tonight, right at five PM again, Mimzy was snuffling a bit and sneezing…temperature change. Then at 7 PM again. I’ve heard more snuffling form him tonight, so perhaps I was wrong about the feral kitty…her fur may be bothering him.

My biggest worry is, if I have to cut out pellets for Mimzy entirely (I should work up to this with all three bunnies actually) what on earth do I give him to munch all night? He is so used to there being something in that bowl of his. Can anyone think of some other crunchy treat (besides hay…he’ll keel haul me if he finds THAT in there) that I can give bunnies to use for their mid-late-early night snakcs? I’ve already tried dried dandelion flakes, they go too fast.

I know eventually they’ll get used to it. I just need a transition item.

Most of the evening we’ve been wrestling with our boiler…the baseboards are full of air and there was no heat circulating. So it got kind of cold in here…we’ll see if he has any trouble tonight when the heat rises back up to usual temp.

[jerseygirl]

Ha – you may get to truly test the heat theory after all. On the pellets, if you feed them later, then there’s hole in my thinking. I did read you were finding odd things in the pellets. Maybe a bad batch?…. I was looking at ingredients of the peter pellets, that’s why I asked if it was the Marshall ones. There not too bad..lot’s of hay varieties in them.

As for the alternative for chewing at night – some hay cubes? Yucca chews? Though not sure how regular they can have those. How on earth do you sleep with all 3 munching away thru the night? lol

[RabbitPam]

I agree about trying hay cubes. I was happy to find Timothy cubes at the pet shop, but got the alfalfa for Sammy to start on since she’s still so young. She’s still working on her first cube (weeks old now) because she has it on her platform and only bops up there for a midnight snack.

I am eager to see if the Oxbow pellets make a difference. It’s very possible that things that shouldn’t be in pellets would cause him distress. I have more confidence in the Oxbow manufacturing process.

[MimzMum]

Well, this morning, while he was up on his shelf munching away on what was left of his pellets…three or four hearty sneezes and some head pointing. Pellets are becoming the bane of my existence.
I tried giving a few to Pip last night (the Peter’s ones) and she had such bad poopy butt this morning as well, that I had to give her a butt bath…and I got to add on a gland cleaning as well….sheesh! What a nightmare! (at least she is VERY good about it…no such luck with the o ther two)

It was very dry in the house this morning though also. I had to drink a whole bottle of water before I could even talk without sounding like a buccaneer’s parrot!

Soooo…. I know I have to get them to give up the pellets anyway. I think it was Scarlet Rose, Sarita or Beka that told me going pellet free is not a bad thing for house bunnies.

I think I will miss the sound. It’s so comforting to know the bunnies are happily nomming while I sleep.

Mimzy was a little snot last night while I was cleaning up too. He snapped at me three times! (of course I didn’t get to clean till 1 AM due to the boiler problems we had that I was helping the hubby fix, so he may have been cranky that midnight snack was not served on time) But he’s a little snuggle bunny today. ^_^

[Binkles]

Huh…do you think it’s because of Mimzy’s tooth problems? Maybe that it’s getting stuck or going down awkwardly? Does he take his veggies/ hay alright?

You might try making a little bit of a slurry out of the pellets -just enough for them not to be mushy and not hard.

[jerseygirl]

What about lower respiratory infection. I know you said vet did x-rays and ruled out URI but was lower resp investigated?  It’s just the sneezing, wheezing, head pointing reads like lower resp prob, whereas with upper resp, there’s usually some sort of nasal discharge.   A member here had some success relieving her bunnies laboured breathing by running a warm water thru her nebulizer. Other than misting up the bathroom, not sure how else to increase humidity to see if it makes difference. Hang wet washing in the room, hang some wet, light weight cotton tea towels on some sides of his pen. Could you look into hiring a nebulizer from a pharmacy?

What’s really baffling is where and when he does this! You’d think if an infection was taking hold, he’d be wheezing constantly……you must be so frustrated!  (((Mimzy + MimzMum)))

[RabbitPam]

I’m thinking take them off the pellets, increase the hay and fresh food, give them the little cookie treats (I break the heart snacks in half or smaller) at the designated time for pellets, and wait for the new order to come in to change brands. If it is the cause of their distress, then it will give them several days to get it out of their systems. Start very slowly with the Oxbow and watch for adverse/allergic responses.

Ugh. Poopy butt too. Not having a good time of it this month, MM. Hang in there.

[MimzMum]

Jerz…the doc took xrays not just of his chest and the three shots of his head (sinuses, teeth and trachea in particular – all good) but his abdomen as well to check for stasis and she was particularly looking for any fluid low in the lungs to be sure he didn’t have pneumonia. (prevalent up here I guess) Everything checked out fine and she was quite baffled.

I’m doing my best to get them all off pellets. It tends to make them crabby (lots of litter box tossing-even Fiver’s doing it now, ugh!) and I would guess it’s because of all that sugar they suddenly don’t have in their systems at night. (I am looking forward to the Oxbow getting here, I have heard so many of you swear by it for nutritional value…it HAS to be better than the one I’m using!)

The odd thing is I’ve noticed of late the boys were starting to leave pellets in their bowls, and of course Pip had poopy butt thanks to them. I am sure something change din the formula and, well, when you find things like tiny pieces of plastic and staples in the freshly opened bag, you begin to wonder just how necessary it is to feed them this stuff?

Even poor Fiver is starting to have smooshy fecal/cecal matter sticking to his already compromised rear feet. These things are just totally bad news!

Now the hubby got me some pediatric Benadryl (the doc asked for 25 mg per 5 ml, but this one is 12.5 mg per 5 ml, so it’s kind of half strength) and I’m to give him .8 cc (ml) twice a day if he’s having trouble. So far he seems to have more sneezing fits first thing in the morning or early evening or late night…all these are times of temp change in the house. I really think we could be narrowing down the cause. (at least I hope so! ;_; )

[Binkles]

Oxbow is purely amazing. I only give Little-Bit about a teaspoon of Bunny Basics T a day (in addition to her hay and greens of course) and she’s as healthy as…well, a bunny!

[MimzMum]

lolz…Well thanks to my being an airhead (shoots looks at anyone who agrees) I ordered the wrong pellets from Dr’s F&S. I got the alfalfa ones instead. *smacks forehead*
I did get a bag of Organic Oxbow though, so we’ll give those a go first and see what happens. Cross fingers for us! xD

[RabbitPam]

I forget, but don’t you have a Petsmart up there? Because just this past year sometime they started carrying Oxbow. I found my Bunny Basics T pellets in with the small animal ferrets aisle.

[MimzMum]

No, I have PETCO. They don’t carry anything decent. (At least they stopped selling rabbits, but now I gotta wonder where all the ‘oops’ baby rabbits go these days.)

[BinkyBunny]

This must be just so frustrating! GACK! Do the others still have smushy poops still? Hopefully that was just a diet thing, otherwise there can be certain things, like coccidia that can be spread.

I will be utterly amazed if it ends up being the temperature thing as I still can’t figure that out. But obviously, from another thread, that was brought up by a member’s vet and you are starting seeing changes in temps change so maybe there may be something really to this and I just have to figure it out…..- does it seem to be when the heater would come on? Maybe blowing dust through a vent?

[MimzMum]

I just don’t know, Jen. Seriously, we have dust everywhere in this house, so if it were dust, I would think he’d be sneezing all the time, not just when the heater starts up. :-/ It’s not forced air heat. The boiler sends the hot water through the baseboards and it radiates.

I took pellets away from Pip entirely, so she doesn’t have poopy butt when I don’t give her those. She tried a few of the new Oxbow Organic pellets last night, but probably not enough to give her potty troubles.

I also had two sets of greens going during the day, so I may have just had too much water going through their systems. But Fiver and Pip seem to have nice clean bums today.

I haven’t heard any more wheezing that I can really tell from Mimzy, but there’s the occasional sneeze and that appears to be at temp change times…very regular. Early morning, about 5, 7 and 11 PM, then maybe once during the middle of the night.

VERY weird. 0_o

[jerseygirl]

BB, from what I’ve read, the indoor temps and drier air may cause allergies to flare up – if say a rabbit is allergic to hay/pellet/litter dust.

In Mimz case? He seems to start as soon as temp changes, where as you’d figure the air is already dry or gradually drying more…

[BinkyBunny]

JG OHHHHHH…AHHHHHHHA! That makes sense!

[MimzMum]

I have yet to figure out exactly how to effectively and frugally moisturize the air in my room. Humidifiers are too hard to clean and can harbor pathogens if not kept pristine, but…a vaporizer wouldn’t work, would it? I would think that would only dry the air out worse?

Here’s another thing…for some years here lately, I’ve been thinking I have some kind of sleep apnea. Is it possible that the air being too dry would have some bearing on that? (I tend to wake up gasping from time to time during heavy sleep.)

I have been keeping Mimzy’s cage extra clean this last week and I use a spray bottle to distribute water or water/vinegar solution…could the moisture from that have helped/hurt his condition?

[jerseygirl]

Doubtful….I have been trying to think of suitable fabric to wet down that still allows air flow thru it. For increasing moisture in air, but also evaporative cooling device. I could sure use something like that for Jersey! Anyway, in the toy section, someone was asking about cheesecloth for toys- that would be ideal to create some evap cooling.

[MimzMum]

Oh yeah! That would be porous enough to allow air through, and yet still hold moisture. I’m going to give that a try.
My only concern is keeping Mimzy from getting his teeth into it, but I think if I put a thick piece of cardboard under Pip’s pen (Mimzy’s roof) and then sandwich the cloth on top of that and under Pip’s pen bottom, it would hold it in place and would make the cloth jut out a ways from the pen bars.

I’ll let y’all know how it works!

[jerseygirl]

 Huh!

MM, I just made an interesting observation.  I was cleaning out a litter box, as you do, and  I rinsed then wiped it with paper towel.  Now it is really hot here, so the plastic was pretty much dry but I wiped it anyway.  The scaly residue on the bottom left some flakes and these literally “danced” from the static whenever I put my hand or the towel near the plastic.  I was thinking maybe you have inadvertantly electro-charged the base of Mimzy’s cage which is causing small particles to get in his nose etc.  Even a tickle from the static may cause a sneeze at least. 

He may even do it himself with his fur!  I know you’ve mentioned this here and in the static thread I think.  Just connecting dots.  I like a puzzle.

Anyway, the combo of dry air, plastic, friction, particles would all result in static annoyances.  Increasing the humidity would help in this plus putting a layer between him and the plastic or diffusing the surface tension of the plastic. (Maybe rinse in very dilute detergent/water solution and allow to air dry – don’t wipe)  Worth a try.

Edit to add: Suppose he would have experienced this with his pen at other times though.  *shrug* still worth reducing the static any way I guess.

[RabbitPam]

Hi,
I just bought a very inexpensive cool mist humidifier, instead of a hot water one, that I thought I needed for this cold/virus I have. I haven’t used it yet, but have used them many times before. I got cool mist because in FL it’s warm, though much cooler than what jerseygirl is experiencing.

Anyway, not sure how fast that would get moldy, but the darn thing was only 20 bucks at Walgreens. It doesn’t blow cold water, just doesn’t heat up first like a vaporizer. Might humidify your room for you.

They all sound like they’re doing better overall.

[MimzMum]

Oh, I so wish we had Walgreens here, Pam! ^_^ I have wonderful memories of that store…my best friend and I used to go there just about every night after school and look at teen mags together and buy all sorts of junk food and dye for our hair, paint for our nails, etc. *sigh* Ahhh…good times!

Perhaps I can find this humidifier at WalMart? Do you have a brand name for me to look for?

Jerz, I like the idea with the static…goodness knows, while I had Mimz out on the bed last night I must’ve zapped him at least ten times, poor thing! But then he only starts washing his face furiously, no sneezing.

But ….last night (very late) he went into a sneezing fit and I had just reached my hand into the cage after putting on some lotion (I had forgotten to put on my rubber gloves) and suddenly I had a thought that, about the time he started having trouble was when I was putting on lots of lotion after walking the dog…the lotion is the organic calendula mixture I had originally gotten for Fiver’s heels!

I rubbed a new small spot of it on my finger and put my hand near him and he began sneezing again. Could it have been this cream all this time?? The bottle is on my nightstand next to his pen! (I’ve moved it out of the room now.)

I am SO hoping this was the problem all along. He wouldn’t eat the new pellets last night, and this morning he had finished his hay, but his box doesn’t look like he used it very much. (I used a bit of Feline Pine to see ifhe’d use the box more, but the poop is all over the floor again today.)

He’s also been a lot more mellow than usual for the last week. (I had forgotten to tell the doc that he’d slipped off his shelf about two weeks ago…though he’s moving pretty much normally, he doesn’t seem to want to be up there, so I moved the shelf lower this morning.) I would think the doc would’ve seen any damage to his back when she xrayed it, so I may have to ask her to look at the films again.

I think the lack of mobility is due to the fact that, while I’ve been having to walk the dog about 20 times a day, i haven’t been able to set up the xpen. They really haven’t been out much, except for snuggle time on the bed, for a few weeks. So I’m hoping that’s all it is.

Anyway, does anyone have any suggestions for a hand cream that will not irritate the bunnies noses? I’ve got to keep these hands moist somehow, or they crack and bleed and hurt terribly…but I don’t want to cause Mimzy any further nasal distress.

[jerseygirl]

Only time will tell re the hand cream…

Maybe look for a paraffin based, fragrance free one? My niece that had eczema issues has a cream that is 50% soft paraffin, 50% liquid paraffin. It was developed by an allergy unit in a hospital here. Still, you may be able to keep the one you have if it isn’t the culprit.

[MimzMum]

I used to use Aquaphor, till I found out it was tested on bunnies. It was the one my radiation oncologist recommended for my chest after treatments.
The cream is the only constant in my bedroom. It’s in a little pump bottle, so it almost always has a little drip coming off the end of it (not within reach of Mimzy’s mouth, however) and everything else I’ve either changed, moved or cleaned. :-/

[RabbitPam]

I immediately thought unscented, but he might lick you too, so you need it sort of edible.

I googled for home made hand lotion (after a few other tries) and found this recipe. It’s so simple, even if it doesn’t work you might feel silly but it couldn’t do any harm:

Combine 2 parts oil with 1 part salt and 1 part sugar (I use tablespoon measures for single use). Spread on hands and leave for 5 minutes, then rinse in lukewarm (NOT hot) water.

I assume you can use something simple and safe, like canola oil.

[MimzMum]

lolz…My Google Hero strikes again! ^_^ Well, I can’t imagine the aroma (I’m going to smell like I’m about to bake cookies or something), but hey, if it keeps my hands soft and yet doesn’t make Mimzy sneeze, it’s worth it! Thanks!

[MimzMum]

Well, another frustrating update. Last night somewhere between 1 and 4 AM Mimzy suddenly began sneezing and pointing his nose again. The sneezing is so violent he has to throw his head back (his little mouth sometimes flops open) and when he sneezes his poor face comes down hard on his chest. It’s heartbreaking to have to watch him go through this.
But he was on his shelf…with the new pellets. I’m thinking he’s going to NO pellets whatsoever next, but I am sure all this food changing is messing with his poor bunny tummy. I gave him some Mylicon before bed last night just to help him if he had gas, he seemed a little tucked up in his corner.
I noticed he appeared to be grooming himself before the sneezing started, so I thought maybe something nasty was stuck to his bottom and I should check it out in the morning. Easier said than done, however.

I tried to flip him over today to check his bum and glands…he is a fiesty little pill! Even in the bunny burrito, he escapes! (I’m thinking Houdini or Hocus Pocus may have been a better name.)

I did change out his litter to the Feline Pine, but that was a few days ago and neither litter seems to make a difference…so I don’t think it’s that. Is there any other safe kind of litter (short of shredding soy based ink newspaper) that I could use for him? Should I just use hay? (I used to put fresh grass in his boxes in the summertime, he likes that.)

Also, he really tends to leave little ‘blessings’ everywhere when he’s out on my lap. (it’s like having a faulty bubble gum machine) So I wanted to be sure his butt was clean. Even his anal glands are relatively nice (lots nicer than Pip’s were) but the gunk in them, although minuscule, is deep in the gland area which is like a darned trench. By the time I get it open, he’s flipped himself over again and I have to start the whole process from the beginning.

I’m pretty sure that, while all this worry is getting him more attention, he’s getting a little fed up with mummy poking and prodding him for several different (and obviously useless) reasons per day. The hubby is going to help me set up a humidity device of some sort tonight, but if this doesn’t work, I am at my wit’s end.

On top of all this, he still seems depressed and doesn’t eat all his food at once like he used to. (he does eat and poop and he pees like Niagara Falls, but he just doesn’t seem ‘himself’) I am seriously strained with worry right now. ;_;

Here’s a totally wild thought and my last resort. Could all this strange behavior and respiratory issue be due to him just missing constant time with Pip? I haven’t wanted to really put them together again not knowing if he had some disease…but now I’m wondering if he could be pining and making himself sick?? 0_o

[RabbitPam]

Maybe you’d be better off with some fresh advice from some of the others, but I have one more suggestion.

Why don’t you write to Dana Krempels? I think if you send her the link to this post, so she can read everything you’ve mentioned, she may have an opinion or knowledge of allergies or a course of action to take. What concerns me is that the clue to his improvement may be hidden in a multitude of extraneous considerations. She might know what’s significant, or combines to be something that can be properly diagnosed. Here’s the link:

http://www.allexperts.com/ep/703-35789/Rabbits/Dana-Krempels-Ph-D.htm

[MimzMum]

Thanks, Pam. I’m sorry, I know this can’t be any fun for anyone here either. I’m sorry to be so much trouble.

I went ahead and sent Dana the question plus included the link to thsi thread (I hope that’s okay, BB?) I’ll post here when I get an answer.

I don’t know…maybe I just need to unplug for awhile. I’m not just working myself up, but my rabbits and, sadly, everyone on this board as well. I certainly don’t intend such a result.

[jerseygirl]

Really feels like we’re chasing our tails on this one! Glad you’ve sent a Qu to get D. Krempels perspective – you sent link to this thread?! Wow, will she get some background information! It does read like a diary of events. Be interesting what she has to say! Be prepared for another possible trip to the vet.

Hang in there MM and Mimzy – be sure to update us here asap!

[RabbitPam]

My Goodness, MM, you’re certainly not working me up, and I doubt anyone else here is anything but concerned. I still think it’s little Mimzy’s way of distracting you from Shadow’s troubles. (Kind of like when the person goes to the doctor with a stomach ache, so he hits their thumb with a hammer and says “see – now you’ve forgotten all about your stomach.” That’s a joke. Anyway, it’s very baffling, and solving allergy issues is time consuming. Post what she says. I think of Dr.s like her online as vets without all the extra mileage. Hope she can help.

[Beka27]

Oh Mimz! I am very concerned. I’ve been reading and thinking and reading more and I don’t know what to suggest. Everyone else has had great ideas. I’m glad that you emailed Dr. Krempels. PLEASE let us know the instant she replies. Maybe update your thread title with “Answer From Dana Krempels” or something. I bet he does miss Pip. Can you try to give them together time on your bed? Have you ever done that before, or only in the xpen?

[sasnpipp]

I hate to say it, but I still think the tooth root abscess issue should be looked at more closely.  I know  he had x-rays, but as I said previously, they are very tough to diagnose.  I believe there are six head x-ray positions, your vet did three, it is possible something was missed.  

You may want to just put him on antibiotics (penicillin shots and an oral) for a couple of weeks and see what happens rather than pay for more x-rays.  

Did he have a blood test?

 When he blew out a bunch of ‘snot’ last year, could it have been pus? 

I still have my doubts this is allergies.   If it seems to be happening when he’s eating, that could just be a stimulus effect from chewing and/or swallowing, which is another possible indication of a tooth root/abscess issue.  (Or it could just be that he’s using his mouth for eating and not breathing).  I wouldn’t put a lot of store in that.

For the record, Dana is a biologist, not a vet, although the knowledge level is the same (sometimes higher) I’m sure.  I’d be interested in hearing her response as well.  

 

sas

 

[MimzMum]

I know you guys have all given wonderful ideas and I REALLY appreciate all you’ve done to help. Please don’t think I don’t consider all the work you’ve all gone to. I wouldn’t want anyone here feeling I’m just being dismissive. We have tried to implement most of the ideas you’ve given us, with the exception of the blood work and the humidity trick, which, the hubby didn’t want me hanging cheesecloth because the atmosphere in the house is very conductive to mold…so there’s another thing I need to think about also. Could there be mold spores I can’t see/smell that could be affecting him? But if it were, it should bug all the bunnies, right? And it wouldn’t just happen at strange inconsistent hours of the day/night, I would think. >.< However, hubby did say I could fill a bowl with water and blow a fan over it if need be, so I'll try that today to see what happens.

Last night he had one sneezing fit that woke me up in the middle of the night, but I was too groggy to see what time it was. He was on his shelf again, pointed towards the back of the cage, (wondering about the old fingerpaint on the wall adjacent to him now), and he belted out about 5 good snorts. Then he seemed fine. I note I haven’t heard the wheezing for awhile…but I haven’t been able to sit with him all day and night lately, so…. Still no sign of drainage from nose, mouth or ears..but after wrestling with him in the bunny burrito towel yesterday, his right eye was weeping a bit. Clear stuff. I think I may have poked his eye by accident while trying to hold him.

Temps outdoors went to about -40 F. We’ve got ice on the window sills today. (there is no such thing as weatherstripping in this house…there are leaks everywhere) Since the son and husband still have to take the dog out at all hours of the night, I also wonder if it’s the deep cold draft reaching the room that sets him off. But I just can’t pinpoint a direct cause (with the exception of the lotion fragrance the other day).

Washing himself also seems to set him off. SAS, I didn’t know there were 6 xrays that could’ve been taken…why wouldn’t my vet have done that? (she did take four total, I think) And no, the bogey he blew out of his nose last October was mucous consistency…it did not have any blood in it nor did it look anything like what I would consider to be pus…however I didn’t have the presence of mind to take it with me to the vet, so she didn’t get a look at it.

Truly, I wish it COULD be just tooth problems, that would be easy to solve as opposed to this situation. But I gave him a hay cube last night to eat and he about ripped my hand off for it and proceeded to attack it with gusto! 0_o And he doesn’t sneeze when he eats other crunchy foods, so once again the idea is it has to be a certain something that’s triggering him and I just can’t figure out what.

I wonder…hay cubes and pellets use the same binding agents usually, don’t they? I wonder if that may be the problem? Even Pip has shown poopy butt at the Organic oxbow pellets now…so those are out. I think it was Sarita who said that indoor buns who are not being bred really don’t need pellets to survive as long as they get plenty of hay and fresh veggies. This combination seems to work better for us anyway.

Argh…anyway, this is a heck of a mystery and I just hope I can solve it before something more serious occurs. He does truly seem to enjoy the extra attention though. ^_^ When I pull him out for time with me, he almost instantly puddles and soaks up the head pets. It’s the closest we’ve been in a while.

I haven’t ever had both buns on the bed before. I really have to get the xpen up today, having them both out on the bed would be a nightmare, I couldn’t hold them both from taking a header off the side. 0_o The kids are really no help right now as they’re both trying to finish school stuff in time for graduation. So I’m kind of on my own here.

NOTE: If Dana Krempels should read this thread, I notice I put the URL for only this third page on my note to you, please be advised there are two other pages here of symptoms and discussion. Thank you!

[sasnpipp]

I would think that washing himself could trigger the sneezes by applying pressure on the sinuses, or he could rub his nose when he feels like sneezing.

The vet was doing you a favor by only doing the three positions, that’s standard.   The bill was already high enough I’m sure.

It’s just part experience, part gut instinct.  I’ve seen too many tooth root issues or abscesses that don’t get diagnosed.   The vets are most often stumped.  Rabbit care at the current level hasn’t been around for very long, it’s a developing science, especially dental.   There is something weird about the tooth root problems, they just seem to be so hard to spot, and I have no idea why.  I just know that I keep seeing similar complaints from multiple people on our board, and it most often ends up related to a tooth root infection.   They’ve improved with very aggressive antibiotics and/or dental surgery.

 

sas

[MimzMum]

Well, if he doesn’t show signs of improvement here pretty soon, or we don’t resolve it some other way, he’s going back to the vet. I do have to get all their nails trimmed and, since the boys are way too fidgety, I have to have help with their anal glands.

SAS, what particular type of test/xray would you suggest? I want to be able to ask for it specifically so the vet doesn’t just brush me off. As it is, we can’t see any other sign of infection: there is no grinding, no drooling, no exudate of any kind. He eats well enough for what I am used to from him, I just don’t really see him as enthusiastic about some foods as he used to be. (Tastes could be changing too I suppose, or the winter variety of greens doesn’t smell right to him perhaps.)
I am still amazed by how ferociously he went for that hay cube last night…and there was hardly any of it left at all today. 0_o

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Awww Mimz I’m sorry he’s not feeling better yet!! {{VIBES}}

[MimzMum]

Thanks K&K,! Here’s a brief update. I have to say, I haven’t heard any more wheezing and he wasn’t sneezing last night. But while doing evening clean up, I stumbled across something that really floored me.

Now you must remember, my eyesight is crap, even with glasses. It’s still winter here, so the daylight is poor. Light inside the house is terrible due to having to keep tiny windows for heat retention. So even when I do clean, I often miss stuff. Our ambient lighting in the house is VERY dim (high watt bulbs are expensive to keep on all winter and blow out too easily), hence why I get pretty depressed during the cold months.
And to top it all off, we live on a dirt road. The house’s ‘basement’, which has multiple openings in the baseboard (I assume for ventilation?), is basically a dirt floor…there is only concrete block to hold up the foundation, no cement pad.

Anyway, I got a sudden itch to use a very bright flashlight to inspect Mimzy’s pen after cleaning it last night. I was shocked with what I found. Not only the inside but also the outside of the pen was still lightly coated with fur, dust and lint…not tons of it, mind, but enough to make me feel like I hadn’t cleaned his pen at all! 0_o I don’t know if this is the exact cause of his distress…but it certainly can’t help. I think static electricity has a lot to do with this stuff sticking to the walls, even with Swiffer cloths (those electrically charged dusters) I can’t get all the junk off. I think I would have to wash Mimzy’s whole pen in the tub every day to keep it as pristine as I want it to be.

I’ve gone back to using vinegar/water or Nature’s Miracle to clean with…we’ve been using Feline Pine for litter (hubby could only find Good Mews today, so he may have to go back to that for a bit) and I’ve been doing my best to sweep up whatever crumbs, fur and such I find during the day instead of the usual two major clean-ups I normally do. And last night I practically scrubbed the color off the plastic bottom of that pen.

But I think with all these combined factors, plus his stubby little nose being so low to the ground all day and him inhaling all this stuff that may be building up in the sinuses and causing the sneezing. I’m just going to have to keep a tighter lid on the cleanliness of his pen and the surrounding area.

I may have to rearrange the setup of my room so that the bunnies are in less of a place to have dust accumulate. But this room is so small, that may be next to impossible. I think I’m going to have to wind up springing for that nice air purifier that either Sarita or Beka directed me to.

So, that’s the latest. I am SO angry at myself for not “seeing” this (literally) sooner. Poor Mimzy has had to pay the price for my stupidity.

[jerseygirl]

Honestly Mimz, with a bright light, you can notice that sort of thing on any surface recently cleaned. I can wash wooden floors, be lying on the floor later with strong sunlight coming in and feel like the effort was not worth it. Dare I say, the swiffer cloths would be electrically charging the plastic surface in his cage. We and most likely buns have nasal hairs to deal with dust. Yes, it could annoy him if he’s extra sensitive but you would have noticed this in the past with him, and it’d be more consistant. There’s gotta be more to it. I know I said something similar before but I think it could attribute to the sneezing but what about the wheezing and head pointing?

Give yourself a break. Mimzy is gonna owe you some serious appreciation once this is resolved!

[MimzMum]

Well folks, here’s hoping and praying we are finally at the end of this miserable episode in Mimzy’s life. (please see the thread in Diet and Care regarding “Piggie Pellets…”)

Also, here is Dana Krempels answer to my question. I am glad to hear that blood tests are apparently not required to determine Pasteurella…however it seems she does not find this to be the cause anyway…but now after realizing I’ve been feeding Mimzy guinea pig pellets by mistake for the duration of the time he’s been sick, I feel more like a duncecap than ever, and thinking this had to be the problem all along, as he seems to have returned to normal, no sneezing or nose pointing in the last few days and there isn’t even a hint of nasal discharge any longer.

Thanks again,everyone, for your replies and all the hard brainstorming you did regarding this mystery! (hugs for all Binky Bunners)

Subject Unexplainable Sneezing Rabbit
Question Hello Dana,
You have helped me before with my Holland Lop neutered male rabbit, Mimzy. He is approaching 2 years old now. We’ve got a new issue that doesn’t seem to have any logical conclusion.
For the last few weeks, (and also back in October of last year) he seems to go into fits of sneezing, sometimes causing him to point his nose in the air. I ran him to my vet for radiographs and to be sure there wasn’t anything closing off his airway: there is nothing visibly wrong with him on the films. She does not want to have to gas him down to draw blood for Pasturella as she sees nothing to indicate that he has it. My fellow house rabbit enthusiasts and I are baffled as to what could be causing this; we’ve thought dust, pollen, hay allergies, humidity and temperature changes, pellets, activity levels, hand creams I may be using and even the vet suggested asthma! There is a thread at an online rabbit site I visit that I will include here in case you’d like to see the most recent history of this issue.
https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/forumid/2/tpage/3/view/topic/postid/95267/Default.aspx#96680
I have two other rabbits housed near Mimzy who are also perfectly fine. Their daily activity is normal, all are eating, sleeping, moving about and eliminating completely normally. The only thing that is wrong is this sneezing that doesn’t seem to want to resolve itself. It will generally happen in bursts of two or three episodes per day, but there is no real specific time it happens, nor can I find any consistent cause.
My vet has suggested .8 cc’s of children’s Benadryl twice a day if needed, but since Mimzy only has short bouts of sneezing, and since I’m worried the indoor climate of my house is already too dry for him, I am loathe to make his nasal tissues drier by using this medication. Do you think it should be tried anyway?
I’d sure appreciate a fresh opinion on the matter. In all other instances, Mimzy appears totally normal, albeit he seems a little depressed to me (which has been going on for a while-we live in Alaska where it is pretty dark right now) but I am not certain the sneezing is related to this.
Thank you for your time.
Answer Dear Mary,

Has the vet considered the possibility that Mimzy has a foreign body lodged in his nasal passage? Our vets have seen strands of hay, pellets, and all manner of small things accidentally snucked up and getting stuck, so it might be something to consider looking into via endoscope, if nothing else presents.

An ingrown tooth root also can cause this problem, though this would be unusual in such a young bunny. We see tooth roots intruding into the nasal cavities of older rabbits, but very rarely in young ones.

Some vets don’t feel nasal culture and sensitivity tests are valid because of the chance of contamination, but we’ve found that if you swab the bunny’s nostrils with chlorhexiderm flush well, and then let it dry, there is minimal contamination with a deep nasal culture sampling. Might be time to try that:

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/culture.html

Please also see:

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/sneezing.html

for additional possibilities.

I would not rely on a blood test for Pasteurella titer. It’s much simpler to take a nasal culture, since that will reveal if there are actually bacteria growing there. A blood test will tell you only if there are antibodies against Pasteurella in the bloodstream. If so, that means the rabbit has been exposed to the bacteria at some time in her life, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that she has an active infection with that species presently.

I hope some of this will help!

Dana

[jerseygirl]

Fingers crossed!!!!!!!!! Hope it is over for him. Remember asides from stopping the g.pig pellets, he’s also had benadryl and expelled something mysterious from his nose. Keep in mind in case this issue recurs. Least you know what to ask the vet to do if he does have further issues – nasal culture. Hopefully though it is solved – yay!! *Binky*

[BinkyBunny]

Well, I have one big “WHEW!” Thank goodness the problem may have been solved!! Yeah!!

[RabbitPam]

It’s been a few days now. How is he doing? Is he symptom free? Did the new pellets arrive yet?

[Beka27]

That’s great she was able to respond! I also hope this whole mess is resolved!

[MimzMum]

Well we’ve been on the Basic T Oxbow pellets for about four or five days now. He still has sneezing fits about once to mostly twice per day…sometimes he skips a day altogether. I just don’t know. I am going to make an appointment to get all their nails trimmed next week, so I’ll follow up with my doc and see what else can be done. He is not in any distress, no more nose pointing that I have seen (but of course every time I say something like that, suddenly it happens again) and there is still only the minimal clear wet spots right about his upper lip under his nose that do not have any color or substance to them when I wipe them off with tissue or a finger. I checked his paws thoroughly…no discharge nor is there any loss of fur or anything coming out of his eyes. His chin is dry too.

I’m just stumped. I just can’t wait for warm weather when I can open the windows and the fresh breezes will be blowing (barring wildfires)…it’s got to be the miserable air in here or something. Tonight while walking the dogs, the inversion layer is so bad outside that I am coughing and choking from all the woodsmoke from neighbors using their stoves for heat. It’s like a blanket out there. >_< Just the kind of life one leads in the Arctic Circle.
Grrr. Why couldn’t the hubby have been born in Tahiti?? 0_o

[Author]

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