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| 06/22/2008 01:31 PM |
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Thanks for the bonding section ----
Last month I posted that I already had Baby (2+ yr old female netherlands dwarf, spayed) and was getting Gracie (2+ yr old female Lions Head dwarf that was spayed 2 weeks ago the day I got her).
Baby (first bun) has full run of the house when we are home otherwise she is contained in a bedroom but never locked in her cage. Gracie (new bun) has a large pen area with cage in a separate bedroom and I just taught her yesterday how to go in and out of her cage into her pen (and she now will never be locked in her cage again). I was going to start bonding this week but am wondering if I should wait longer for Gracie's hormones to settle down. What does everyone think? Wait longer than just slightly over two weeks? I really want this to work.
Thanks ---love the site still --Bunny Mama |
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  Sarita(Dallas)
 Forum Leader 14912 posts  | |
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| 06/22/2008 01:38 PM |
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I think if you have the luxury to wait, I would wait a few more weeks and then start slowly. |
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 MarkBunRichmond, CA
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| 06/23/2008 06:05 AM |
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Agreed. If you can wait 8 weeks, it would be a good thing to do. You could start with the 'stunt double' though and have them begin to get each other's scent so when they come across one another, it won't be a complete surprise to them.
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| My bonding quest with Maryann - Read about a less than easy bonding with two buns - but they did bond! |
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| 06/26/2008 12:46 PM |
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Thanks for the advice. Promise to wait for at least 4 weeks but I'm sure I won't be able to take 8 weeks since I'm stressed at having Gracie the new girl in a pen instead of roaming free where she should be. When I get closer to starting to bond, I'm sure I'll have many more questions. Take care bunnny slaves.... |
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 Beka27Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Forum Leader 14001 posts | |
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| 06/27/2008 02:44 AM |
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once she is reliably littertrained, you might want to start allowing them separate runtimes. it will cut down on your first rabbit's outtime, but as long as she's getting the recommended 4 hours a day, i wouldn't worry about it. plus 1st bunny will be able to get used to the scent of the new bunny. this will also give you some time to start to bond and get to know the newcomer. |
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Meadow.....
...... Max |
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| 06/27/2008 10:43 AM |
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So Beka27 you suggest letting the new girl out to roam the house while bunny #1 is in her bedroom. Interesting thought and I was wondering about doing that. So it should help them get better acquainted with each others scent. HMMMM. Maybe I'll try that a little this weekend. Baby my first bun has been all over and I mean chinning everything in sight everyday, everytime she goes by something (long before bun 2 came into the picture). I'm pretty sure that bun 1 - Baby will be the domainant bunny - she bullies me all the time -- I am a bunny slave after all. Thanks --Bunny Mama |
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Beka27Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Forum Leader 14001 posts | |
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| 06/27/2008 11:38 AM |
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be aware their might be some territorial marking with poops... but i think it would be better to let them smell each other. |
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| Meadow.....
...... Max |
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| 07/04/2008 05:51 AM |
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Okay so I've let Gracie bun #2 roam the house freely for about 5 days now. Baby bun #1 wasn't exactly happy about it. They both left poops and Baby pooped and urniated in the master where Gracie was not allowed to go.This was on day 1. Since then they've both sorta accepted the others scent. But it was getting harder and harder to keep them separate and give them ample run time so today we started bonding (neutral setting). This session went for 15 minutes (which felt like 15 hours to me and my husband) and at first they ignored each other. Then came nose to nose and Baby was smelling Gracies #2 face. Baby then showed some gently signs of domaince like sniffing at Gracie's butt and a very low key chase around a little. They separated and then Gracie ran over toward Baby #1 - Baby ran away and Gracie chased her and took out a chunk of fur! Spray bottle went into action on Gracie (about 3 squirts) to get them to stop since I could see that Baby was getting very afraid. They separated for a bit and then Gracie ensured again they did a leap in the air side by side but in different directions. Then Gracie ran toward Baby once again and was showing signs of aggression and Baby was quite scared so we sprayed the water bottle separated and returned them to the thier rooms.
Not too bad for the first go around. I can't believe the Baby #1 who has bossed me and my husband around for almost 2 years now is running from Gracie the newbie. This is sooooo stressful. Any ideas or suggestions? Thanks --Happy 4th of July you Bunny Slaves! I plan on another session tomorrow morning again for like 20-30 minutes if all goes well. |
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Beka27Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Forum Leader 14001 posts | |
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| 07/04/2008 10:16 AM |
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was this their first meeting? i have a bonding thread in this forum about Max and Meadow. it takes time, but i'd suggest you try and do some bonding every single day. it's very easy to get frustrated... but if you keep your eyes on the ultimate goal, that will hopefully motivate you. it took me 3 full weeks of bonding (i did at least one hour per day). i started off where you are with fighting and fur flying. they both had bites on them and Meadow actually ripped Max's lip... but as of today, they've been penned together for 3 days straight with no fighting at all. so take it slow... you need a small neutral area. i was bonding in my bedroom and i gated off part of the room so we were in a space no bigger than about 3 x 6 feet. they need to be close so they cannot avoid each other.
Markus and Sarita helped me a great deal with the bonding, so if you continue to update in this thread, they will hopefully come by and offer more guidance.
if you happen to have a camera with a video feature, i'd suggest you take short videos (a minute or two) of how they are interacting. this was very helpful when i was trying to describe behavior. i have several videos saved on my youtube account. if you're interested in seeing the progression, you can either view them thru my bonding thread or thru my youtube directly (youtube/Beka27).
good luck! |
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| Meadow.....
...... Max |
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| 07/04/2008 04:05 PM |
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Yes this was there first bonding session. I will stay commited but Baby #1 has been terrified in her room all day, not sleeping and just cowering all day long! She is normally so sweet but since she was being chased and nipped I'm afraid she thinks that Gracie #2 will come into her room even tho Gracie can't. I feel bad for Baby since she is so sweet she ran right over to Gracie and started to sniff her face and then Gracie backed away and seconds later Gracie started to chase Baby. Once domainance is determined will the aggressor back off? If not I'm not sure what I'll do since Baby #1 is very upset by all of this. Gracie #2 is just hunkie dorrie while poor Baby is freaked out. We are trying again tomorrow morning some time and will try to go longer as long as they are doing okay. When one is really scared should we stop? I know Baby #1 very well and can tell how she is doing. Thanks and I'll update again tomorrow after the session --wish us all luck....no video cam, I have a digital camera that I've not learned how to use in over 1.5 years I am sorry to admit. Think I'll jump over to utube - never been there but hear about it. |
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Beka27Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Forum Leader 14001 posts | |
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| 07/05/2008 04:40 AM |
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so Baby is not territorial over her home at all? usually it's the other way around. the first bun feels they have to guard their turf. put them side by side and pet them constantly. you want to end on a good note. so if they start to fight, intervene... try to calm them down and then separate. |
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| Meadow.....
...... Max |
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| 07/06/2008 07:24 AM |
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Baby has been territorial - pooping and urniated twice now siince Gracie #2 joined us. Yesterday we did another session -second session. We petted bot the them rapidly which really calmed them down. They were a good distance apart and eventually Baby got bored hopped over to about 2 feet from Gracie - paused and then hopped away. She went about her business for quite awhile just checking things out. She then circled back by Grace #2 again paused and then hopped away. After I tried to give them carrots to send the session on a good note neither one would eat. They did quite a bit of self grooming in the session tho. Graciie #2 went sorta charging over to toward Baby which she had done the day before but when my husband touched her back she just darted in a different direction and then we ended the session.
Both rabbits have been pooping all over the common areas of my house and chinning like crazy. I feel that Baby #1 definetly wants to bond but I'm sure about Gracie since I've only had her for 4 weeks tomorrow.
We might do 2 sessions to today and I'll post again. Keep the suggestions coming.....
Should I put them in each others rooms or wait awhile before doing that -- think it will freak Baby out --- was thinking maybe for just a few hours today since I'm home from work.
Happy Sunday to all bunny slaves...... |
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Beka27Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Forum Leader 14001 posts | |
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| 07/06/2008 07:44 AM |
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i would move their cages into teh same room, so even when you're not bonding they can see and smell each other. keep 3-4 inches between the cages so they cannot bite betw/ the bars. |
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| Meadow.....
...... Max |
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Sarita(Dallas)
Forum Leader 14912 posts | |
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| 07/07/2008 04:24 AM |
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I agree with Beka put them in the same room. Remember too that bonding is about forming trust and it can take rabbits awhile to trust each other. At least they will see each other and observe each other.
It does sound like the second session went well. But you do need to be persistent and keep up the routine. Don't be discouraged by the 2 day, it hasn't been very long really. |
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 Sarah JonesLondon, UK
99 posts | |
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| 07/07/2008 04:35 AM |
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just wanted to wish you luck! i think each situation with buns is different from what i read on here. you might find that something helps you bond yours that causes fights with other buns. you should (with trepidation!) try lots of bonding techniques and find the right one for you. one thing though that i agree on with beka is, definately put them in the same room. everytime you take them away from each other it is almost like being back at square one. maybe when they are out together through a lot of food down. they might munch at the same time and this is a nice way for them both to see that it's not all about being dominant? i'd maybe try herbs rather than carrots though. a pot of herbs can tempt even the most grumpy of buns to it  self grooming in front of each other is a very good step too! |
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Beka27Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Forum Leader 14001 posts | |
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| 07/07/2008 04:47 AM |
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food is a great idea. i always had a litterbox with a bunch of hay and a plate of greens or herbs. a few times i would even mix in some little matchstick carrots. i believe that a bunny that is comfortable enough to eat is not worrying about fighting. at first they would take turns eating the greens or hay, after awhile they were eating together. food is a bonding activity all by itself. if their cages are next to each other, put their food bowls as close as possible so they can see the other bun eating at the same time they are. |
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| Meadow.....
...... Max |
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| 07/07/2008 04:55 AM |
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Thanks so much for all of the recent posts. Since both Baby #1 and Gracie #2 are free range bunnies each within their own bedrooms, would it make sense to put there cages in one room BUT ONLY FOR LIKE THE AFTERNOON WHEN WE ARE AT WORK AND THEN MOVE THEM BACK INTO SEPARATE ROOMS. I worked so hard to give them freedom I hate to lock them both back in each of their cages. Or would moving Gracie and her cage in and out of Babys room each day cause too much stress. I would only cage them in the same room, 4 inches apart for about 4 hours in the afternoon when they mostly sleep anyway. I'd use Babys room since ultimately that is where I want both of them to stay.
Bonding session #3 last night went for 50 minutes but they avoided each other, I need to make the space smaller. Baby #1 approaches Gracie very slowly but then Gracie #2 just goes at Baby at a fast speed and then Baby gets scared and runs by either me or my husband. Last night they both pooped everywhere and when Baby got scared she sprayed urine all over my new rug (not new anymore and that rug is coming out for next session tonight). Grooming and treats went okay but since Gracie nipped Baby on day 1 Baby runs from her every chance now. They did come nose to nose once and then both kinda ran off. Not too bad I guess.
Keep the advice coming........another session tonight.
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Sarita(Dallas)
Forum Leader 14912 posts | |
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| 07/07/2008 05:01 AM |
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Can you put them in x-pens side by side? That way they could have plenty of room - see Beka's original set-up. I understand how you feel about giving them their freedom and not wanting to disturb that but I think that you should make bonding the priority instead of the freedom right now. I don't think you can have both in my opinion. Once they are bonded then you can give them the freedom again. |
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Sarah JonesLondon, UK
99 posts | |
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| 07/07/2008 05:03 AM |
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running and coming face to face and a nip is SO much better than some of the stuff mine have been doing. one of mine had a bleeding mouth and the other a hole in its ear. i thought it was a no hoper! now mine are at the stage where they are doing occasional nips and a lot of running away rather than actively fighting. sometimes avoidance is a step in the right direction. the eating thing will help. they will get hungry and see the food there and eat and then go "oo i forgot you were here and you're not hurting me so i won't run away". also, i think bonding is a good enough cause that you can cage your buns for a bit. they will appreciate it in the long run when mummy and daddy go to work and they have a friend to get there bunny cuddles from instead. |
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Beka27Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Forum Leader 14001 posts | |
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| 07/07/2008 05:38 AM |
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i absolutely second what Sarita and sazemoo said...
you need to decide what the priority is. is it freedom for two single buns? or is it reduced runtime but BONDING within the next few weeks/couple months? they WILL have less freedom, but the outcome is worth so much more for them both. they could potentially DOUBLE their freedom in the long run since they won't need separate times.
if there is a bunny room where you want them to be permanently, i'd suggest you move the current bunny out of there for a day or two and give it a thorough cleaning. wipe down the walls, clean the carpeting or flooring very well. throw away and replace old cardboard boxes, phone books, or any toys that are really "claimed" by the first bun. make it sparkle. then move them both in there and there they stay. switch the buns to the other cage everyday. they can still have playtime separately for awhile, but they always go back to that room. |
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| Meadow.....
...... Max |
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| 07/07/2008 04:00 PM |
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Session #4 tonight didn't go so well. It was only 30 minutes. Started out okay but Baby #1 is so nervous she approaches Gracie #2 and then turns and runs. Sometimes Gracie just sits and other times she follows and nips at Baby. Baby had fur everywhere - poor thing. This is a really hard thing for me to keep doing but for now I'm gonna try a little longer. They both did groom, poop alot again and did eat treats about 2 feet from each other. I saw some signs of aggression from Gracie once but Baby seems to be so nervous and somewhat aggressive. Lets just say they were both soaked when we took them back to thier spaces. Baby then proceeded to come upstairs and collapse for a few minutes and then forged around the house chinning and pooping everywhere she could.
Thanks to recent posts, tomorrow morning I will move both of their cages into the kitchen making a L shape(some what neutral area) and leave 4 inches between them and allow them to be caged all day. When I get home at 5:45 I'll move them each back into their rooms, do bonding session in same room as always and then back to their separate rooms with cages for the night but free range. I just can't bring myself to cage them 23 hours a day and that is what would happen. I'll see how that does for the rest of this week. I have a big party on Sunday - but I will do bonding session that day still but they will have to be in their own rooms again.
Keep any ideas coming and thanks much. |
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Beka27Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Forum Leader 14001 posts | |
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| 07/08/2008 04:45 AM |
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the bonding session seems kind of normal for the beginning stages. that's good that they were able to go about their business while the other was there. Baby may end up getting very scared of Gracie if this continues, but as things progress she should be able to come around. i know it's tough to watch them fight and be frightened, but remember that this stage is only temporary. keep at it.
will you be switching rooms then? an important part of bonding is changing them up so they do not become territorial. can they go to the other room each night? |
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| Meadow.....
...... Max |
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| 07/08/2008 06:26 AM |
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This morning I moved them both in their own cages into the kitchen right next to each other with no freedom --just caged. They looked so sad but I really think this will help alot getting them more familiar with each other. Tonight after work, they will each go back to their own rooms with their own cages. Tomorrow moring back to the cages in the kitchen but we'll switch them into each others cage every other day till at least Friday. I'd like them to get use to going into each others cage for a few days and then I might try the switching of the rooms at night (but is another whole level of complexitiy) Bonding session again tonight too. I'll keep you updated. |
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| 07/10/2008 02:28 PM |
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Session #5 wasn't good. Baby #1 keep lunging at Gracie #2 with her teeth showing but she has never, ever nipped Gracie. But after the lunge, Baby turns to run and Gracie nips her every time. Poor Baby has her fur tufts everywhere. Gracie got hosed down with the water bottle after her last nip. By the end no one was happy anymore and I was totally discouraged.
Next morning back into each others cage for the day side by side in the kitchen. Oh they were not happy at first, they both peeped and pooped everywhere in their cage "of the day". While at home for lunch I just talked to them both and petted alot. During the short time home I noticed they were paying attention to each other - like checking each other out. Later at night session #6 went extremely well. I talked to Gracie more to keep her clam and I would break Baby in her lunging stride before she reached Gracie so no nips at all. This might be key -to keep Baby from lunging and then consequently getting nipped. Tonight we will try again - I'll try to keep them busy with something part of the time too. They sat fairly close to each other when eating a treat and I was petting. The pile of food as suggested above somewhere I think is a terrific idea except Gracie #2 won't eat anything but carrots, pellets and hay. Nothing -- I'll have to start a new thread on that one.
I'll continue to post --- I'm now encouraged after last night. I think having them in the cages side by side all day and all night has helped alot. They are not exactly happy to have their freedom gone but it's just for awhile. While Baby was out on her run time, she was like running outside of Gracie's cage and Gracie didn't seem to care but when the table were turned Baby was trying to nip and bite and claw at Gracie when Gracie approached Baby in the cage. I tried to not let this continue to keep them both on their way away from the cage area. Thanks for any comments...... |
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Beka27Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Forum Leader 14001 posts | |
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| 07/10/2008 05:19 PM |
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Posted By bunnymama on 07/10/2008 5:28 PM
I'll continue to post --- I'm now encouraged after last night. I think having them in the cages side by side all day and all night has helped alot. They are not exactly happy to have their freedom gone but it's just for awhile.
BINGO! 
think of it this way. everytime they are together and then separated overnight, it's like they are "meeting for the first time" all over again. you have to force them to be together, but after awhile they will choose to be together. that's when you know you're making progress. please keep us posted. |
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| Meadow.....
...... Max |
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| 07/14/2008 02:35 PM |
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Okay so I know I am behind in posting and will but .....both buns have their own rooms which only have their scent in them. I am assuming I need to let the other bun into each others room??????? Gracie #2 is still chinning everything in sight and pooping all around Baby #1 in her cage during Gracie's run time. I am afraid of the urine tho. Gracie is still urinating outside the cage around Baby sitting in her cage at least once a day. Before bonding they were both completely poop dish trained. Thoughts? |
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| 07/14/2008 05:15 PM |
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Sessions are going better. We just had #11. Letting them sniff through the cage bars has helped quite a bit when one is free --every once in awhile they will nip at noses but usuallly it's been quite friendly. I realized that when I would clean the cages and poop dishes - I was making them too clean (afraid of smells) so I've stopped being so obsessive about it and just clear out the poop and hay and debris but leave everything else alone. I'm adding the other buns urine saturated paper crumbles and poop pcs into the other poop dish. We tried using food to get them closer in bonding session, but that didn't work out --Gracie #2 is a little possessive of food apparently and when she finished hers she went afer Baby #1 to get her leftovers. Poop dishes become an object of Gracies affection tonight in bonding session, she chased Baby away from both poop dishes twice and never cared about that before. Even when Gracie #2 goes after Baby now she normally does not make contact and no fur has been flying recently. Gracie passed right by Baby twice tonight with out either one flinching. We see alot of grooming and Mama snuggles and pets both when I can. Our sessions are only about 30-40 minutes long and Baby #1 (my very nervous little girl) gets too worked up to go much longer. Thier is definetly more trust between the two then before so we are making strides. I do try to control them each a little (keep Baby from charging and Gracie from nipping). Gracie #2 has been running and she did a binky for the first time ever on Saturday night - it was so exciting. So she seems happy and she has even started to eat some greens for me after seeing Baby thru the cage bars eating some. Things seem to be progressing nicely I would have to say. Thanks everyone -- I'll continue to post. RECAP- I've had Gracie #2, 5 weeks as of today --I waited just under 4 weeks after spay to start bonding and today is day 11 of bonding session. Carry on Bunny Slaves! |
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| 07/19/2008 06:15 AM |
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Session #14 was last night - although in sessions 12 & 13 we saw a 5 minute grooming of each others face fest. Baby #1 tried to mount Gracie #2 and Gracie was shocked and turned and nipped Baby. Then they did one of those super fast chases in a small tight circle which we broke up - appeared they both wanted to mount at the same time. Last night they stayed away from each other. As usual Gracie #2 nipped Baby 2-3 times and Baby #1 did some mid air jumps away from Gracie which caused a tiny bit of a tussell....think this is what others have said - a step backward. Will try again maybe 2 session today. Will continue to post so others can learn.
Got my binky order yesterday---pretty fast Binky Bunny CA to IL in 5 days - I was impressed. Thanks. |
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| 07/28/2008 12:20 PM |
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Okay so last night was session # 23. Seems we are at a standstill. Once we got Gracie #2 to stop nipping then Baby #1 started nipping at Gracie. Baby will lick Gracie's eye and then nip on the face somewhere. Last night went better - some chasing and only very light nips. No one got sprayed with water and are sessions are a minimum of 1 hour and can go longer when we can afford the time. Might try a very small bathroom to shake things up or we might start car rides. Will have to research the car ride thing again before we do.....they will be sooooo sweet togther once together but until then its been hard. They have been very nice to each other through the cage bars when one is loose. Have a party every weekend in August and I was so hoping to be done with bonding but I guess not..... |
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| 08/01/2008 07:15 AM |
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Last night was session #27. They have been ignoring each other for several sessions. They do take turns nipping at each other - some times fur comes out time times not. Tried banana on the heads last night --didn't work. We get some grooming of Baby #1 on Gracie's #2 face but they then Baby nips and runs. We've been in a different room which seemed to help for the first 2 times. We deceided to try the car ride at some time over the weekend. I'll post how that went and what we did. Wish I had better news but today is the 4 week mark of bonding --brutal - never thought is was this hard or would take this long ---I was wrong on both counts. They are always nice to each other through the cage bars now so that is good I guess. |
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