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Forum BONDING Bonding 2 neutered males of different ages

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    • Chelsea
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        I just brought home a 4 month old just neutered male rescue bunny. We have a 3 year old free-range house bunny. My plan is to keep the new bunny in isolation (a bathroom never entered by the other rabbit) for a month until I know his hormones are all gone. I gave each of them a stuffed bunny to snuggle with, and my plan is after a week I will start switching out their litter boxes and seeing how they react to each other’s stunt double. I’m a bit nervous about the age/size difference, and the fact they’re both males, so I’m going to try and take it slowly.

        Suggestions welcome! Name ideas for the new bunny welcome too!

        110145


      • Love4Bunny
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          What a handsome little guy! He reminds me of Despereaux, after the kids book of the same name.


        • Blackbunny1
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            He is so cute! where did you rescue him from?


          • Chelsea
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              I have a friend who works for animal services, and he was overflow from a shelter though that they needed to get rid of ASAP. The mother was dropped off pregnant, had lots of babies, and meanwhile several other rabbits were dropped off as well.I live in a small town with a shelter that only has capacity for 6 small animals, and normally doesn’t spay or neuter. A vet volunteered to neuter the male babies to make them easier to find homes for them quickly.

              So, kind of a rescue? They really needed homes for them ASAP, but I have a suspicion someone else would have taken him if I had said no given how nice he is. I feel really fortunate to have him, and really want bonding him to work out. It was unexpected, although we’ve been thinking about trying to get a spayed or neutered companion for our other bunny for a while.

              I like Desperaux! The shelter called him Brownie and my kids are lobbying for Cocoa. I’m not sure yet. We would kind of like to change the other name of our bunny at the same time (Sweetie – we would keep it just as a nickname) because it was kid picked and has slightly lost its appeal.

              ETA: We are now leaning towards Jasper and Silas (shown in my avatar, AKA Sweetie).


            • Chelsea
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                It has now been one month since Jasper was neutered, and he is approximately 5 months old. He is the most licky bunny I have ever met – seriously, he licks my pants, shirt, hands, robe, nonstop. When he and Silas have met through the baby gate (which has extremely small holes) Jasper tries his best to lick Silas. Silas, on the other hand, mostly ignores Jasper and hops away after a few seconds. Silas seemed stressed by us bringing in Jasper and had more digestive issues in the last few weeks than normal. He has not shown any signs of aggression though.

                I’m trying to decide whether to introduce them in a neutral space this weekend, or wait to give Silas more time. My original plan was the bathtub with a huge heap of greens, but given that Silas gets sticky poops if we don’t carefully control his greens and pellets intake I’m not sure that’s the best plan. Mostly I think I worried about the size difference between the two if a fight breaks out, and Silas getting stressed out and sick. Another part of me thinks I’m being silly – Jasper shows all signs of being a very submissive friendly bunny. I think they could both benefit from some company. I’m not sure how I can ever keep them in the same space though while Jasper is a baby because of their very different dietary needs.


              • Love4Bunny
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                  Try inserting an NIC grid fence between the bunnies during feeding time. Once it’s over, remove the barrier.


                • Chelsea
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                    So do you think it would be best to have their initial meeting over food, but with a gate or pen separating them until they each finish their greens? Or just leave food out of it, and separate them for meals after bonding?

                    My biggest concern is whether I should go ahead and try bonding them now, or wait longer.

                    Thank you!


                  • Vienna Blue in France
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                      How long has Silas known of Jasper’s existence?
                      It took my bun a few weeks to not go bonkers at the cage where the new bun was being kept. She seems to have settled down now (Both sniffing each other inquisitively through cage) and i will start bonding next week…. I am very nervous too….


                    • Vienna Blue in France
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                        I have heard of putting a metal sieve (like the dome ones with a long handle used to sieve flour) in front of one bunny’s face during the first meet, so if he has a lunge his teeth don’t come into contact with the other bun’s face….


                      • Chelsea
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                          They’ve been sniffing each other through a baby gate with tiny holes for almost 4 weeks.

                          I think I’m so nervous because of Silas’s recent bout with mild GI stasis, and a bad bonding experience we had a couple of years ago. At some point though we are just going to have to give it our best shot and see what happens. 

                          I hope your bonding goes well!


                        • BunnyFriends
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                            Can’t go too bad, Chelsea. Good luck!


                          • Chelsea
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                              First meeting down, in a cardboard box in the bathroom. Jasper mostly tried bury his head in the side of Silas. Silas wanted OUT of the box, and made his point by stomping his foot.


                            • BunnyFriends
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                                That means he wants grooming, which can be a good sign but he might get frustrated if Silas doesn’t give him any soon… but it sounds liken it went quite well.


                              • Love4Bunny
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                                  I wouldn’t say Jasper is a baby. He’s almost a teen, so I think it’s fine to proceed with bonding.

                                  The only thing I’d stress is ensure it is neutral territory. Every owner will have a different experience to someone else, but scent plays a big role in bonding. Thor went for broke chasing Crysta when I was given some incorrect advice on bonding (it was way too premature to introduce them into Thor’s space and I was a real newby). I will never make that mistake again.

                                  I agree with BunnyFriends about Jasper wanting grooming. It’s actually quite humorous to watch them headbutt their partners in weird places in order to get groomed.

                                  Silas is going to hate sharing his space in the beginning. But most of them do, so try not to take it… personally. That’s a normal reaction, but perhaps with residue from the past. I think the best thing you can do is be a calming presence during bonding and remain positive (I know, it can be difficult).

                                  I would leave pellets out of it for now (you can try next week). I think greens and hay on their own are good. Some people have experienced problems when they put litterboxes and toys in a space where rabbits haven’t learnt to trust and share. That can cause fighting. Of course, food still causes scuffles with my two but I feed them in a specific way so they don’t chase as frequently. But I have to move fast when I do!


                                • Love4Bunny
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                                    Oh yeah, if Jasper hasn’t had greens, you may want to hold off till he builds up a tolerance. Hay with some herbal topper mix can be a good incentive.


                                  • BunnyFriends
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                                      I know right, Love4Bunny!! I have yet to see either of mine want to be groomed yet… maybe today they’ll stop fighting and it’ll happen. (Wishful thinking haha )


                                    • Chelsea
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                                        Thank you so much! It hadn’t occurred to me that Jasper was trying to get Silas to groom him. Do you think I should keep trying in the cardboard box? We put it on the floor of our bathroom he never goes in.Silas really wanted out, and I know he would have just tipped the whole thing over if we hadn’t been holding on to it. We could try the bathtub, but I was worried it might be too much space.

                                        I think it’s the size difference that really makes me think of Jasper as a baby – he’s half the size of Silas! We have no idea though what his adult size will be.


                                      • Love4Bunny
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                                          BunnyFriends, I was so happy the day Crysta submitted. She was a stubborn one. Took me two months to actually bond them.

                                          Chelsea, standard tub size should be fine. Tubs are good because they are slippery (no chasing) and you can clean up easily. But tubs don’t work for everyone. It doesn’t have to be a tight fit in the tub. But ignoring each other is quite normal also, so don’t worry if that happens. When I first introduced Thor to Crysta, he tried to attack her. She was small and scared. So I used NIC grids to protect her and after that, my tennis shoe in between them when he lunged at her. Thor soon stopped lunging and began to ignore her. I put something sweet tasting on her forehead and that also helped with grooming. Eventually, hahaha.

                                          If any bunny starts to hump a face, gently push them off because you don’t want them to bite [whatever is left of their] genitals in retaliation. Also, I wouldn’t let regular humping go on for more than 8 or 10 seconds at a time.


                                        • Love4Bunny
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                                            I also think there was an adjustment period regarding the energy levels between my rabbits. Crysta (smaller lionhead) has boundless energy and Thor (bigger lop) is so chill, so that was irritating to Thor, I think. Nowadays he lets her run free without getting his knickers in a knot. The relationship is more balanced now, over a year later. It’s a lot of fun to watch them interact and snuggle. But I did have my doubts in the beginning.


                                          • Vienna Blue in France
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                                              L4B. Your doubts give me hope


                                            • Chelsea
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                                                I feel like we are at a bit of an impasse. Silas still just wants to get away from whatever containment device we put him in, but Jasper is extremely interested in Silas. When ever he goes after Silas (it’s a bit unclear what he’s trying to do – nip, lick, try to get Silas to lick him) Silas mounts him. The one time we tried to let it go a bit, we had to end it when grunting started and we saw a small patch of fur. As long as week keep a barrier between them there are no signs of hostility. We tried giving them a pile of greens in the bathtub, but I think they were way too stressed out to actually eat.


                                              • Love4Bunny
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                                                  In a way you are at the beginning of bonding, even though they’ve been opposite each other for a while.

                                                  Did you try bonding in the bathtub? It helps if you have a shower door to keep them from jumping out.

                                                  For you , it probably feels like you’ve been at it for a while. That’s normal. I think it’s still early days, because once you start putting them in the same space, you’ll see attitude come out. Try to look past that (occasional foot stomping) because they’re just trying to figure things out. Fur pulling is also normal, and confusingly, there is a fine line between love and hate.

                                                  Bonding is indeed a stressful time for bunnies and humans. Mine didn’t always eat their greens. If you leave the barrier in between, they won’t bond.

                                                  Have you looked at the bonding info section on BB?


                                                • Chelsea
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                                                    Thank you! Yes, I’ve read them extensively, and you are completely right. I need to back off and try to let them work it out. The size difference just makes it scary. That and I’m terrified of them starting to really genuinely hate each other, and get mad whenever they even smell each other on one of us. But like you said, if we don’t let them try to work it out, they never will.


                                                  • Love4Bunny
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                                                      Yes, it is scary. Sometimes the little guys get bullied, but sometimes I think they get their own back through being tenacious. The only time mine got mad was when I just stuck them in a room together with just a week’s worth of bonding sessions under our collective belt. Thor was not ready for that. He hated Crysta in his room. I should’ve waited till they’d established a pecking order first. So based on my experiences, I’d recommend waiting for clear signs of submission from one before progressing. I was advised that scent wouldn’t be a “hot topic” once they’d sorted out who was going to get the most grooming, and that tip worked for me. Cementing the bond was trickier because I ran into different issues yet again, but on reflection, increasing space gradually vs. suddenly would’ve helped them bond sooner. At the time I could not figure out what was wrong so I kept trying to go back to what worked instead of looking at what was actually going wrong in their new home. Sometimes you have to work backwards from the problem because it may not be something you did wrong – just something different. You may find your boys are fine either way, so trust your intuition. You’re confident with your bonding research. It’s not like you’re going in blindly.

                                                      Rabbits have a way of frightening us with their angry behaviour, especially toward each other. It’s something you will get used to, and then you will be less jumpy when you have to deal with fur pulling again. It will make you stronger. Sounds odd but I mean it with all seriousness.


                                                    • BunnyFriends
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                                                        Don’t worry Chelsea – until Saturday I was losing all hope of my rabbits ever coming within two feet of each other without fighting. Now I’m trying to get a picture of them eating together during a bonding session! It’ll get better.


                                                      • Chelsea
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                                                          Thank you! That’s awesome BunnyFriends! And very encouraging.

                                                          And as it turned out, backing off and leaving them alone turned out to be way easier than I thought. Tonight’s session got about 10 seconds of Silas trying to mount Jasper before giving up and flopping down. The next 10 minutes was spent with Jasper standing alert/terrified a few inches away and Silas relaxing like king bun. When Jasper tried to approach, Silas jumped up and started stomping his foot again and trying to get out of the bathtub so we decided to call it a night.


                                                        • BunnyFriends
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                                                            Jasper looks like he wants to be there, but Silas might do something to him, haha.

                                                            Side notes: Jasper’s fur looks so chocolatey. And soft. I want to pet him. And Silas – I didn’t realize he was that much white!!


                                                          • Love4Bunny
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                                                              They are very sweet. Glad to hear, Chelsea.


                                                            • Vienna Blue in France
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                                                                Silas, one to add to our list of white buns on the first of the month…


                                                              • BunnyFriends
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                                                                  Unmistakably white. Nobody can argue with his position on that list.


                                                                • Chelsea
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                                                                    Yep, Silas is pretty white. Slightly ironically though, Jasper’s eyes glow red in low light, while Silas’s do not.

                                                                    So we’re on week 2 – I think session #7 or so. The last couple of sessions were pretty uneventful – Silas ate, Jasper stared at him on alert from a few inches away. Tonight things got a bit more interesting. Jasper kept sticking his head under Silas’s chin (presumably asking for grooming?). Silas did not appreciate it, grunted at him, and nipped him. This kept happening over and over again, until I finally called it quits because I was afraid Silas was going to hurt Jasper’s eye.

                                                                    I hope this is a short-lived phase. I’d like to get them out of the bathtub eventually.


                                                                  • Chelsea
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                                                                      For tonight’s bonding session, I promised myself I wasn’t going to interfere, and kept the (glazed) shower doors closed for the full 20 minutes. For the first 5 minutes, Silas ate. Then he did a full-dead-bunny flop on the bath tub floor for another 10 minutes until Jasper approached. After another minute or two, they started grunting, nipping and chasing each other in a circle. They both thumped angrily at each other nipping each others sides and back. I think they were both (unsuccessfully) trying to mount. I called it quit after 20 minutes, although I’m not sure if I should have let them continue.

                                                                      Clearly, Jasper is not willing to call Silas top bun yet. Sigh. It’s still early though, and at some point hopefully they will get tired of this game.


                                                                    • Love4Bunny
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                                                                        I read of someone who bonded for 9 months before it finally happened. I’m sorry the boys are not cooperating. Sounds like you have two headstrong buccaneers, there.

                                                                        Have you tried mashed banana or vanilla essence on the heads of the bunnies? It’s gross and messy but it might help with someone beginning the submission process. Sometimes all it takes is for one bunny to begin the process. Sometimes.

                                                                        Do you wear thick gloves during bonding? I would highly suggest a pair of thick gardening gloves. I went in with a tennis shoe, but my bunnies had a different dynamic to yours (albeit the stubbornness), so I never was in too much fear of being bitten on the hand. If you want to test the waters on a slightly longer bonding session, you could try gently wedging the shoe in between them during chasing spells. I had to deal with nipping, also. And some chasing. It’s a very fine line, but just keep showing up to the party. Fingers crossed for the near future for your boys.


                                                                      • Chelsea
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                                                                          I tried putting a tiny bit of honey on Silas’s head yesterday, but it just really pissed him off. Jasper showed absolutely no interest trying to lick him off. Jasper is not interested in fruit at all though, so I’m not sure if sweet stuff even appeals to him. I could try putting it on Jasper though, or both of them. I like the idea of vanilla extract – we already have it, and it is much less messy. I guess I was assuming that with Silas being so much bigger and older, he would need to be dominant, but maybe not.

                                                                          As a side note, Jasper bit my MIL this morning and drew blood. I was shocked – he is seriously the sweetest bunny ever and have never done anything but the gentlest of nips to the rest of us, including my kids. I don’t know if he was being hormonal, just doesn’t know her, or didn’t like the smell of dogs on her hands. Apparently she reached over the gate to pet him. I have a feeling she might not have the best understanding of bunny behavior. But I’m also starting to wonder if he is a bit more feisty and domineering then we originally gave him credit for.


                                                                        • Love4Bunny
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                                                                            It sounds like Jasper couldn’t see her coming and felt threatened. Rabbits don’t have clear vision in the front. That’s why it’s suggested to approach them from the side. I think Jasper is a regular ‘ol chap (just being a bunny). It could be that bonding has him more heightened than normal. Strange smells can also do that. I think bunnies are generally feisty. All that cute fluff makes them seem gentle, but the sweetest of bunnies can be feisty. That’s what I love about Crysta. You think you’ve gotten her figured out, but as she’s growing confident, she’s starting to boss me around and nip my back to tell me to move, etc. I’ve done a little reading on bunnies in the wild, and it’s kinda brutal.


                                                                          • Vienna Blue in France
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                                                                              Chelsea, reading your posts it seems identical to mine – except that Jasper = my Zou, a female. (and I have not left them alone, together in a closed shower, omg, no!)

                                                                              Henry (Silas) eats happily then does huge bunny flops, sometimes tries to put his head under Zou’s bum but then it kicks off, so I’ve prevented him doing that for now.
                                                                              Zou (Jasper) sits, on alert, watching him. Ready to go for him if he approaches.

                                                                              I wear old big thick padded ski gloves and so far still have 10 fingers.

                                                                              Henry looooves banana mash (mixed water) so it is that with which I am training him with, first off out of the spoon (when in the bath) and then put on Zou’s head… but when I just put a mashed lump on her head, he picked it off quite easily, no licking… so now I’m making it watery mash


                                                                            • Chelsea
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                                                                                Vienna Blue, it does sound like a really similar pairing! Except I think Jasper is just a bit more reluctant to go after Silas because he realizes he’s half the size. 


                                                                              • Vienna Blue in France
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                                                                                  I din’t think Henry starts the fights, but within a milli-second of Zou kicking off, Henry fights back even harder….


                                                                                • Chelsea
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                                                                                    That’s exactly how Silas is – he would prefer to just completely ignore Jasper, but when Jasper keeps sticking his face in him he gets mad.


                                                                                  • Love4Bunny
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                                                                                      Chelsea, I’m chuckling imagining the bunny conversation you describe.

                                                                                      This is what I picture when I imagine Silas’ thoughts:
                                                                                       photo Screenshot_SmartSelect_2016-11-16-19-42-37_zpsqmpzr5bn.png


                                                                                    • Chelsea
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                                                                                         I love it. And yes, that does indeed seem fairly accurate. We were running late tonight and I had grading to do, so my husband took over bunny bonding duty. He came back with Jasper after about 10 minutes. I asked him how it went and he said “Silas just laid there like a king, and Jasper stood there the whole time as still as a statue just staring at him. I couldn’t take it any longer – it seemed like Jasper’s eyes needed a break or something.”  


                                                                                      • Love4Bunny
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                                                                                          Lol!! I reckon Jasper will bend. I know I could be very very wrong. My Thor was so stubborn that no matter how much Crysta refused to groom, he wouldn’t have a bar of it. In the end, she gave in because I think she knew he would never surrender. She still tries to boss him, occasionally. He will sit there all calm till he’s had enough. Then he’ll grunt and she will mischevously run into the corner because she knows what she’s upto. It’s quite funny. I call it the “Mount & Run”. However, they love to cuddle up to each other soon after. I think Crysta has to re-prove her love for Thor, because Thor will demand it from her. She will then lick his eyes and ears several times, and pushes her head under his to be groomed. He will give her a quick groom and then squish his head into hers, and there they be, sprawled out after conflict resolution in a spooning position. Weirdo’s.


                                                                                        • Chelsea
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                                                                                            Love4bunny, how long of sessions did you use with your two?

                                                                                            I went back and read through some different bonding threads and websites again, and I’m seeing some conflicting information. Some people seem to be of the opinion that it is best to keep it positive, and end sessions before fights break out. The other school of thought says we humans interfere too much, and unless they are drawing blood we should let them work it out. Which do you think is more important, ending on a positive note, or giving them enough time together to work things out?  The last few bonding sessions there is no aggression for the first 10-15 minutes, but after that things get decidedly snarly. So far I don’t think there has been any real damage though.

                                                                                            I recognize, of course, that bunnies are individuals, and it is difficult/impossible to come up with one single bonding plan that fits all. But somehow that doesn’t stop me from wanting one 


                                                                                          • Love4Bunny
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                                                                                              About 20 – 30 mins, then 50 mins in the later stages (that went on for a little while b4 we progressed!). In the beginning, I was more hands on but towards the end, I came to a standstill of sorts. At that point, I knew I had to let them figure it out without me because they would get annoyed with each other if I went longer than 50 mins (I timed and recorded bits and pieces of my sessions). If they couldn’t go longer than 50 mins, how could I expect them to co-habitate, you know? I bonded for 2 months but they’ve since grown in bun-ship for over a year now.

                                                                                              Truth is, I used my “senses” when observing them and troubleshooting. I knew Thor pretty well, and I knew Crysta a little, so that helped me gauge when the bunnies were fed up. Some rabbits pull their ears against their back when angry. Thor doesn’t do that often – rather, he lifts his ears up horizontally, like a helicopter, and I know he’s gonna chase. Thor also does this leaning forward thing (like a curious stance), but there will be abruptness in his movements, so I can predict that he’s possessive of something in that moment. I did car rides (yielded little result) and I also woke up to fur pulling and chasing numerous times. I just made calculated guesses based on my rabbits past behaviour, and adjusted tactics accordingly. Also, I learnt through BB that not all binkies are created equal. Some “binkies” actually mean “Don’t mess with me”, and you can tell based on the non-verbal requests of the bunnies to each other, and if their tails are moving, etc. When Crysta is outside the pen, she will sometimes do this because she doesn’t want to groom Thor all the time, and it is her way of saying “No”. He used to chase her to get groomed (in the earlier stages I stopped this, and I have no regrets because the chasing was continuous and I didn’t want him to bully her), but I’ve noticed he leaves her alone now. Once inside the pen, she is more submissive. But outside the pen, she will flex that cute little muscle, and he will go about his business without bothering her, and even groom her back for a little while. I think this is because they figured out who was in charge, so if there is any slight chasing at this point, I don’t stop it (but it never gets bad). When they have backyard time, Crysta will follow Thor and hang out with him. Their relationship has evolved and changed over time.
                                                                                              I say all this to give you an idea on how I approached bonding. Perhaps I am trying to say that you might need to tailor your bonding sessions to your bunnies’ personalities – you know, figure them out and plan ahead. If there is such a thing. If you can figure out Silas and Jasper’s good and bad triggers, maybe that might help. And, of course, figuring out what they’re trying to say to each other!

                                                                                              I think being calmly cautious in the beginning is wise. Eventually, they will have to work it out, so when you think you can trust them together without it getting nasty (consistent & positive behaviour), you can bump it up to the next step and see how it goes. You can never over-prepare, imo, but you can under-prepare, and I think that’s when fights occur – when we go faster than the rabbits are ready.


                                                                                            • Chelsea
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                                                                                                So we have taken a long break from bonding mostly because it has become very clear that Jasper is way too destructive to roam free with Silas. We’ve been forcing them to eat near to each other with the gate in between, but otherwise let them be.

                                                                                                Jasper is currently living in my daughter’s bedroom and has done an impressive amount of damage to everything wood, plus an assortment of other random objects. In 3 weeks my sister’s family and kids will descend for the holidays on our small house. After a great deal of discussion we have decided to try and move him into a cage in the living room, mostly because we are concerned about his safety with 5 kids running around, one of whom is four. So, we need to come up with a cage pronto. We’re exploring options – make one from scratch, purchase NIC cubes, add layers to a metal dog crate. Regardless, we will be sticking Jasper in Silas’s territory. Any suggestions as to how to do this? I can go back to daily bonding sessions in advance, try to bond them in the new cage, or let Jasper get used to it first.


                                                                                              • Love4Bunny
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                                                                                                  The only thing I would advise at this stage is to not leave them alone together or unsupervised where kids can stick their fingers through the bars. My young nephew tried to poke Thor in the head/ eye with a long willow stick once, and I put an end to that very quickly by letting him know that his finger could get bitten off, and making it a hands off zone for the really young kids. I have older nieces and nephews I trust who kept an eye on the pen, and they let me know what was going on. That was the only time I set up a temporary pen in my living room, and believe me, it was the last.


                                                                                                • Chelsea
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                                                                                                    Excellent point. Maybe we could drape cloth over it if we are not right there? That is actually why we would prefer him in the living room though, because we can keep a better eye on him.

                                                                                                    I just ordered three 30 inch foldable metal dog crates (they are only $20 on amazon right now). We are going to attach 2 end to end and put the third one on top for a 2nd story. My husband is confident he can add doorways. It will fit up on on a cabinet, which will make it more out of the way and a little less accessible to small fingers. If it works well we can expand it even more later on.


                                                                                                  • BunnyFriends
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                                                                                                      This is very off topic, but I have cousins who are 2 and 5 and were with Winter (supervised) last time we were over. The younger boy pet her and the older sister said, “Be careful!! She wants to protect her babies!” It was just too cute.

                                                                                                      Sounds like a good plan.


                                                                                                    • Chelsea
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                                                                                                        I’m hopeful it’ll work well. Never mind that the first thing you see when you walk in our house will be a gigantic rabbit cage. Oh well. Maybe we can figure out a way to safely decorate it.

                                                                                                        I’m still not sure whether to to try bonding them before or after moving Jasper into it. We’re not planning on confining Silas because the last two years he did an excellent job just hiding under our bed if he felt bothered.


                                                                                                      • Vienna Blue in France
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                                                                                                          If the buns aren’t bonded you’ll be needing double barriers to protect their noses, if Silas were to come ‘bother’ Jasper.

                                                                                                          Or, could you elevate Jasper’s cage onto a table or something out of reach of Silas’s nose?

                                                                                                          I’m sure you’ve thought of this, but if they are collapsable cages, just be careful to fix the bottom cages so the weight of the 3rd one on top (plus Jasper’s weight and jumping around) doesn’t make the whole thing collapse….


                                                                                                        • Chelsea
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                                                                                                            That’s a good point about them trying to nip each other. With Jasper and his cage suddenly appearing in Silas’s territory I can easily see the potential for that. The cabinet we’ll be putting the cage on was originally designed to be a bench/shoe storage area right after you walk in the door. It’s about 3 feet tall, and Silas currently jumps up there frequently to sit and look out the window.

                                                                                                            The plan is to put posts up strategically for him to knaw on and add support. Or make a frame we’ll see.


                                                                                                          • Chelsea
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                                                                                                              Our first bonding session after a 2 week break went WAY better. I put them in the bathtub together with a huge pile of greens. Silas ate, Jasper explored. He did NOT nip Silas repeatedly in the face, which has always been what started a fight before. He did at one point try to mount Silas, and Silas gently but firmly told him no, that was not happening. After several more minutes of calm, and me getting tired of standing there staring at them, I moved them both out of the bathtub and into the bathroom. Silas immediately started to beg for affection, as if to say “show him mama that I’m your favorite.” Jasper was too caught up in exploring a new bigger space to care.

                                                                                                              So, progress. I’m not sure if I want to keep trying in the bathtub, or try and set up a pen in the living room. I’ll feel better once there is some grooming or other clear sign of submission from one of them.


                                                                                                            • Love4Bunny
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                                                                                                                “show him mama that I’m your favorite.”

                                                                                                                That is ADORABLE.

                                                                                                                Mine are all, “Get Lost Fuzz Butt!!”. I can never bring out the papaya treats anymore. Not unless I pick Crysta up first.


                                                                                                              • Chelsea
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                                                                                                                  Success! Yay!  I can’t believe what a difference a two week break and putting their food near each other made. I got tired of standing in the bathroom, so I set them up in a box in the kitchen while I did dishes. It’s a bit difficult to tell from the picture, but Jasper spent about 5 minutes licking Silas’s head and ears all over. I realize it’s not completely over yet, but this feels like a huge victory.


                                                                                                                • Love4Bunny
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                                                                                                                    YAY! I’m so happy to hear, Chelsea. It may bounce back a bit between them (love me, no – love ME), but I think you do have cause to celebrate!

                                                                                                                    Here’s to harmony in the Land of Sir Jasper and King Silas


                                                                                                                  • Vienna Blue in France
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                                                                                                                      Yayyyyyyyyy. I tried the break and the food with mine … no luck…. could Jaspers hormones be fading out or coming out of teenage years….? Who cares!!!! Yayyyyyyyyyyy


                                                                                                                    • Chelsea
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                                                                                                                        Yes, it could definitely be just fading hormones and aging. But I’ll take it. I’m sorry that doesn’t help you though Vienna!


                                                                                                                      • Chelsea
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                                                                                                                          And… I moved too fast. I’m so mad at myself. Friday was a snow day, so I put them together again in the cardboard box and they seemed fine, but I could tell it wasn’t going to contain them for long. So I barricaded off part of our kitchen thinking Silas’s only interest in it is the refrigerator, and it would allow me to make dinner while keeping an eye on them. It was a huge mistake. Silas clearly thought it was his territory, and showed the first unprovoked aggression towards Jasper (he wanted out and Jasper was blocking off the edge of the gate). Jasper’s new cage came yesterday, so I set up one section of it and put them both in there. They were fine for about 10 minutes, then Silas started biting/nipping Jasper, I made a loud noise and they both just stood there for another 10 minutes with Jasper looking terrified. I couldn’t find any damage on Jasper, but bonding them in the cage scares me a bit, because if a noise doesn’t work to stop them it takes me a few seconds to unlatch it and intervene.

                                                                                                                          Any suggestions? I’ve got about 10 days before Jasper has to go in the cage in Silas’s territory. The bars have about an 1″ x 4″ inch gaps. I don’t think they can hurt each other through them but I’m not sure. I’m home today, so I can try several sessions. I can go back to the bathtub, hold them together on the couch, stick with the cage, or take them for a ride.


                                                                                                                        • Love4Bunny
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                                                                                                                            I’m sorry to hear, Chelsea. If it were me, I’d keep them in separate cages until you can bond without pressure, after the christmas holidays. It’s just not worth rushing it in the long run.


                                                                                                                          • Chelsea
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                                                                                                                              Thank you, I think you might be right. I have a feeling another reset break might be a good idea.


                                                                                                                            • Love4Bunny
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                                                                                                                                Yes. I would put cardboard between the bars if you have an uneasy feeling, cos that’s still enough space for them to scratch or turn their heads sideways and bite.


                                                                                                                              • Chelsea
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                                                                                                                                  After a week break I decided to try again. I put them in a laundry basket with another one over as a lid. It worked well in some ways because they just slipped if they tried to chase, and it forced them to be together. But Silas kept nipping/bitting Jasper on the bottom. I’m not really sure what he was doing, because there was no fur, no stomping, or grunting but it also clearly was not affectionate either. Maybe trying to mount him or get him to move out of his way? It left wet spots on Jasper but I can’t see any damage to the skin. I’m going to table this again for awhile regardless.


                                                                                                                                • Vienna Blue in France
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                                                                                                                                    The other way of thinking is in a larger area so they can move around (and back away) with LOTS of things to do / eat or strange smells (maybe a unknown dog or cats smell) to keep their minds on other things than themselves. This worked for my two for one day (apparently) at the bunny bonder’s

                                                                                                                                    There is another school of advice which says two meetings a day : one stress meeting per day plus one non-stress per day.., and repeat..

                                                                                                                                    I’m only repeating what I read. As you know, I personally failed my two miserably….


                                                                                                                                  • Chelsea
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                                                                                                                                      Any and all advice welcome – I think you had a far harder start than I did. I have a feeling if I really knew what I was doing they would be bonded all ready. I could stress bond them by taking Silas along tomorrow when I take Jasper into the vet to get a prescription for revolution. But I don’t know if that’s fair to Silas, or how I would make sure things didn’t get violent in the car while driving.

                                                                                                                                      I like the idea of a new scary area that smells like predator. Not sure how I could pull that off, but I’ll have to give it some thought.


                                                                                                                                    • Vienna Blue in France
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                                                                                                                                        I would def take them in together to the vets, though not in the same carrier…. or youll be taking a few steps back with Jasper smelling differently. The car ride may do them good, but don’t put them in together if its only you and the buns in the car…. you dont want to have to be checking on them whilst driving and then risk an accident if they start scuffling…. or worse.
                                                                                                                                        They are my thoughts anyhoo.


                                                                                                                                      • Love4Bunny
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                                                                                                                                          Yes, like Vienna said, I agree – take them in separate crates but take them both to the vets. You’ve had a couple of wins under your belt, Chelsea. Just remember that, and what worked. Sure, you went two steps back, but not all is lost. My advice is to go back to what worked for you in the slightest and move from there. Just keep up the patience and consistency of routine (every day). Don’t let the time frame get to you, as in “They should’ve been bonded by now”. You’ve had good signs from them at one or two points. I re-read this thread and you started bonding Nov 4 (with a few breaks), so while it probably feels like FOREVER (it so does), It is probably closer to 1.5 months that you’ve been doing this, and perhaps not everyday. Jasper groomed Silas once – he can do it again.


                                                                                                                                        • Chelsea
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                                                                                                                                            Thank you both, you are awesome. I took them both, and I’m really glad I did, because they did a hygiene trim on Silas, and they didn’t even charge me. I took them in a dog crate with a divider up, and as soon as I got home I removed the divider. They just sat their each in their respective ends for another 30 minutes I think too traumatized to interact. Still, I’m calling 2 hours together with no signs of aggression a win.


                                                                                                                                          • Vienna Blue in France
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                                                                                                                                              Ab-so-bloomin- lootely !! Well done you !! LOL
                                                                                                                                              A win !!


                                                                                                                                            • Chelsea
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                                                                                                                                                It has been an hour and they literally have not moved. It’s like watching paint dry. I guess I just leave them there?!? So odd.


                                                                                                                                              • Chelsea
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                                                                                                                                                  Well, it took 2.5 hours, but now Jasper is licking Silas’s head. 


                                                                                                                                                • Love4Bunny
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                                                                                                                                                    Chelsea, your second-last post made me chuckle so! Have you seen that program, “Storage Wars”? Well, this looks like it could be named “Crate Wars”

                                                                                                                                                    My two cents is that I think the boxes create more time apart (maybe that’s why it took so long??) and that a tall exercise pen is better, but if it works for you, it works for you! Congrats on some grooming, hoomin.


                                                                                                                                                  • Vienna Blue in France
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                                                                                                                                                      Yes, it seems – “you over there, me over here. We’re good !!!! ”


                                                                                                                                                    • Chelsea
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                                                                                                                                                        Yep! That is exactly how I would describe it. I think the boxes made it take a heck of a lot longer, but hey, it worked in the end. I’ve spent all day working on Jasper’s new cage out of 4 of those crates, and I’m really hoping to have it finished by tomorrow. Tomorrow morning’s bonding session will be in a much bigger space! I’m actually hoping I can leave them in it together during their mid-day snooze.

                                                                                                                                                        If I ever have to bond rabbits again, I’m buying an exercise pen. I agree, that would have been easier. Standing over the tub in the bathroom gets really old.


                                                                                                                                                      • Chelsea
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                                                                                                                                                          So I put them into the new cage together. What follows is a play-by-play.

                                                                                                                                                          2 min: They both decide it is breakfast time; Silas eats his pellets, Jasper eats the wooden ramp. Perfect.

                                                                                                                                                          30 minutes: Epic showdown over whether or not Jasper will move out of Silas’s way. Some nipping, than lots of back and forth foot stomping. Jasper looks like a kid pouting, except still as a statue. I swear I can hear him whining in bunny language “You can’t make me move, I don’t want to!” I wonder how long Jasper can just sit there before either Silas jumps over him or I have to intervene. Silas flops over after 10 minutes, so I think the answer is going to be a really long time. I can see I’ve got one stubborn little bunny.

                                                                                                                                                          50 minutes: Jasper still doesn’t want to give in, but realizes he can eat the ramp from where he is. Nom nom. Silas looks disgusted.

                                                                                                                                                          60 minutes: Jasper finally moves. Silas pouts in the corner: “I didn’t really want to move anyway.”

                                                                                                                                                          90 minutes: Silas pushes past Jasper. Jasper stomps his foot a bunch of times and retreats to the corner where Silas was. Silas decides he has had quite enough of this game and goes back and forth a few times just to prove he can. There’s some but nipping (Silas) and lots of foot stomping (Jasper). I’m concerned they aren’t using the new litterbox, so I give them some greens and petting to try and end on a positive note. Sure enough, as soon as they are released they run immediately to their respective litterboxes. I guess it’s hard to not be cranky when you really need to pee.


                                                                                                                                                        • Vienna Blue in France
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                                                                                                                                                            I had a smile and laughter reading that –
                                                                                                                                                            it all sounds healthy bonding – grunt grunt, pout, pout, thump thump, a bit of nipping but no fighting…. it is only a question of time…. keep going


                                                                                                                                                          • Chelsea
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                                                                                                                                                              Picture! 

                                                                                                                                                              For tonight’s ongoing bonding session I added at the suggestion of a blogger Jasper’s luvy to help him relax about being the subordinate bun. It’s a dolphin stuffed animal he loves to lick (under the ramp). I’m not sure if it is good idea or not. It does calm Jasper down – he goes to it and licks it whenever he gets upset instead of turning into a statue. But he’s also not grooming Silas. 

                                                                                                                                                              I put both of their droppings in the new litter box. Silas is using it, Jasper hasn’t gone in it yet. Tomorrow evening the cage will become Jasper’s home, at least for the next week. Hopefully we’ll still be able to let him out to run around, but we’re going to have a crazy full house.

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                                                                                                                                                          Forum BONDING Bonding 2 neutered males of different ages