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Forum HOUSE RABBIT Q & A Wetness around tail, behavioral or medical issue?

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    • Megan143
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        This is really a mystery. A year ago our girl bunny Aurie was found with a wet bottom (she was 6 months old back then), the vet gave her Baytrill and it cleared out the infection after 5 days, so when we found her poor little tail wet again 2 weeks ago (she’s 1.5 yo now), we took her to the vet again and thought it would be the same issue. Her symptoms were: at first wetness on bottom of her tail only on the side facing down, then sometimes it spread to all around the bottom of her tail (I don’t know if I’m describing it right, the rest of her tail is dry, but where the tail connects to her body is all damp and dreadlock-y). She leaks pee without noticing it, when she sits or sleeps she pees and doesn’t move away. We have memory foam all over bunny condo, the memory foam soaks up quite a lot of pee maybe that’s why she doesn’t notice when it’s damp. When she’s awake, she can happily jumping into the litter box to do her business. Her poops are round and dry the whole time.

        We happened to move close to a rabbit savvy vet so we saw her this time, she told us it’s actually unusual for rabbits get UTI but if Baytrill worked last time she would just give it to Aurie again, but she reckoned it should have worked much faster so if it didn’t work after 3 days we need to take her back for other tests. But it didn’t clear her out in 3 days, so we booked her in again, it was a weekend so when the vet could see her it was already the 6th day, in the weekend since we still had some Baytrill left we thought might as well finish it, so in total Aurie had 5 days of Baytrill. On the 6th day, the vet saw her and did a simple urine test and Xray, they all came out fine, Aurie doesn’t have any stone built up in her bladder and her urine is fine too. However the vet suggested we culture the urine to see if it’s UTI, but she suggested to do it in a week time because culturing urine is quite expensive and she worries the antibiotics in Aurie could confuse the result and if Aurie got better on her own in this week then we wouldn’t need to do urine culture. So in week 2, we got no treatment for Aurie, at home we started to add a very small amount of sugar free cranberry juice in her water. one day after we came back from the vet she magically got dry! She was completely dry for 2 days! We thought the Baytrill must have worked to some extend then the cranberry juice might have promoted her to pee more so she cleared the rest out on her own. So we called the vet and cancelled the urine culture. But after 2 good days the wetness was back and we called vet to put the test schedule back on. In the whole time we didn’t change any of her diet except for the cranberry juice. After being wet for 2 days she was dry again, but we thought better still culture the urine in case it comes back. Urine culture took 4 days but the culture result came out NEGATIVE. in the meantime, she started to wet herself again.

        We are absolutely puzzled. I think the vet probably ruled out all the health issues, now it can only be behavioural? The pattern is 2 days wet then 3-4 days dry cycle. But I don’t know why. Aurie is a happy bunny with great passion for food and snuggles the whole time she went through this wetness issue. She has a healthy weight so she can clean herself from all direction. The only behavioural change I see is she used to binky and bunny500 every single day while now she does it maybe twice a week, she doesn’t even stress that much that we pick her up several times a day to wipe her bottom on those bad days

        If it’s just bad litter box manner, I removed the memory foam from the corner she peed quite a lot on in the past two weeks to eliminate the smell and condition, now she doesn’t pee in that corner anymore, in fact I couldn’t find any pee in their bunny condo but when I checked her today her tail is damp all around the bottom. I don’t even know how does the wetness got to the back of her tail >_< is she aiming terribly even in the litter box?

        Have any of you seen similar issues before? Could our vet overlook any issues? or if it’s only behavioural, do you have suggestions to correct it?


      • Mikey
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          One of my rabbits dont mind sleeping in the little box. Because of this, he often ends up with pee around his bottom/tummy/feet/ect. Is it possible your bun is doing something similar? Is she spayed? Maybe that could help too


        • Megan143
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            I don’t think so, she has a bonded bunny friend (in my picture, they’re both desexed) so they just sleep together on their memory foam mats. Their condo is in our bedroom and I stay in the same room with them when they’re out every day, from my observation she’s really only in the litter box when she eats and uses the toilet. We put their grass hay in the litter box so it could be possible that her bottom was too close to the hay underneath and got it on herself when pee splashed…what do you do for your bunny when he gets pee on himself? I don’t mind cleaning up Aurie every day but it’s better to prevent it from happening, I can see her cleaning her tail whenever she gets a chance so it must disturb her a bit when it’s damp


          • BinkyBunny
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              Did your vet ever mention e.cuniculi? Most people associate head tilt or hind leg weakness with e.cuniculi but there are other symptoms, like not being able to control the bladder as well. It might be something to ask you vet about as there are meds to help keep e.cuniculi under control even though there is not a cure. 

              The trouble with e.cunicuili is that even if a bunny shows positive for it, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the symptom is due to that as many bunnies can test positive yet never show any symptoms. But what some vets do is take a test to get the “titer” levels (in layman terms – means just how active the parasite seems) and then they treat, and then test the titer levels again later, and IF the symptoms decline with the titer levels, it can help determine if e.cuniculi may be the cause. It has been many years since I had a bunny with e.cuniculi, so things may have changed a bit, but it’s worth talking to your rabbit savvy vet about.

              It is good that you are able to clean her when this happen as urine can scald the skin. 

              I am so sorry, and I sure hope something is figured out for your sweet girl. 


            • Megan143
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                Thank you so much for this, it’s definitely worthwhile to discuss with my vet about it and get her tested. I will call our vet on Tuesday (it’s a public holiday this Monday in Australia). And yes in the meantime we will try our best to keep Aurie clean and dry.


              • jerseygirl
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                  Hi Megan
                  Nice to see some more Australian members on here! (Oi, the public holiday…of course one of my bunnies has put me through 24hrs of worry on this holiday weekend. Happens far to often!)

                  Is Aurie the uppy-ear bun in your avatar? She looks like a Rex. What is her weight like? Do you see her lift her tail high when she urinates?
                  Had Aurie already been spayed when you found her with the wet tail the first time?
                  Has she had any other health issues?

                  Cultures can be problematic, so I’m not overly surprised the results came back negative. Did the vet extract a sample directly from the bladder?

                  I’ve read that the plant urva-ursi can possible aid in urinary infections. I’ve only ever bought it in the form of tea, Bearberry tea, but i think you can get as tablets from health food stores. That might be something you’d like to read up on and try.

                  I agree about investigating E. cuniculi also. This is another test that can be problematic though, so discuss it with your vet. They might suggest to go ahead and treat for it without doing the titre test.


                • Megan143
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                    Oh no jerseygirl, what happened to your rabbit? is he okay?

                    Yes Aurie is the Rex bunny, she weights 2.1 kg. We got her from RSPCA, she wasn’t a stray but surrendered by an old lady who could no longer take care of her because she has too many animals – old lady also got a cat and a dog. So when we got her she was 5 months old and already desexed and recovered from the operation.

                    A couple weeks after her possible UTI last year, she also had a weight loss issue, she became so skinny and lost her appetite and vet couldn’t see any health problem can cause that, so we concluded she had almost a withdraw reaction from switching to a healthy diet (I don’t know what she had at previous household but at RSPCA I saw although she was given hay she also had a bowl of the ‘bunny muesli’ type of mixture rabbit food, but in our house we give bunnies grass or straw hay and small amount of Oxbow pellets), the bacteria in her tummy wasn’t used to the hay so she lost appetite. She was saved by Critical Care and she’s been 2.1kg since. We grew quite paranoid about her weight, so I weigh them regularly.

                    She had been a healthy and happy bunny since May last year.

                    In our first vet visit this year, the vet noticed she had a bit of sore hocks, she’s a short hair bunny and our bunnies are completely indoors in the past year, we already put memory foam mats everywhere in their condo and we plan to move to a house with a backyard at the end of this year.

                    This is all the health issue history she has, for such a young bunny T_T

                    Back to the pee problem, I do notice she lifts up her tail when she pees in the litter box, but I think part of the problem is she pees or dribbles when she’s sleeping outside the box without noticing it, that could explain why she’s wet all around the bottom of the tail?

                    I believe the vet used a needle to get urine directly from the bladder for the culture. The vet said she was surprised the culture result is negative and she’s consulting with her coworkers in Sydney (we’re in Hobart) and hopefully we will hear something more tomorrow.

                    In our last visit, the vet also thought there’s a small possibility the spay operation left something inside Aurie, she took her to the ultrasound room for a quick look and couldn’t see anything odd. It wasn’t a proper ultrasound exam because we weren’t charged for it but I don’t know how a proper one is different though. I think the vet felt a bit bad for all the tests Aurie had to take (and cost us $450 already) and getting no answer so she asked the ultrasound guy for a favour. I guess if she thinks a proper one is worthwhile she will suggest it tomorrow.


                  • LBJ10
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                      Sometimes a spay can cause scarring that leads to urinary issues. But I would think this would be consistent. It wouldn’t disappear for months. I think EC is worth investigating.


                    • jerseygirl
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                        Her weight sounds good. Rexes can be prone to weight gain and as you know, sore hocks. Both can affect toileting ability in a way.

                        In our last visit, the vet also thought there’s a small possibility the spay operation left something inside Aurie,

                        Yes, I was thinking about the possibility of adhesions from the spay. LBJ makes a good point though.

                        I believe the vet used a needle to get urine directly from the bladder for the culture. The vet said she was surprised the culture result is negative and she’s consulting with her coworkers in Sydney (we’re in Hobart) and hopefully we will hear something more tomorrow.

                        This explains one of the reasons as to a why culture can be negative.

                        Unfortunately, urinary tract infections are sometimes caused by “fastidious anaerobes”: bacteria that die upon the slightest exposure to oxygen. If this is the case, then the culture and sensitivity test will come back negative. However, your vet may be able to determine if a UTI is likely by examining the urine under the microscope for signs of blood and white blood cells in the urine. If there is a good chance that your bunny has a UTI, even if the culture comes back negative, your vet might wish to put her on a course of antibiotics such as chloramphenicol, which is effective against many anaerobes and also concentrates well in the urinary tract. Your vet is the best person to advise you on the proper course of action in case of a UTI.
                        http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/urinary.html

                        Oh no jerseygirl, what happened to your rabbit? is he okay?

                        Thank you. It was one of the girls who was under the weather. Went of her food and stopped toileting. She came good last night, thank goodness!


                      • Megan143
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                          I thought I’d give an update here in case anyone wonders. It’s actually not super useful info as we’re still unsure what’s causing her problem >_<

                          The vet did suggest to start EC treatment for 28 days, after a week of that there was still no progress and her bottom was soaked in wetness even though we dry her all the time and gave her a bottom bath (she hated that, I don’t want to do it again) so hair started to fall off, we couldn’t wait for the 28days to finish to find out it’s EC or not, so we asked the vet if there’s anything else we can do at the same time. The vet gave her more Baytrill (slightly bigger dose and longer course), after about a week we happened to go to the vet for Calici virus vaccination the vet learnt she her bottom was still wet, she offered to shave her bottom and the base of her tail. The vet still thinks she has a good weight and she behaves like a happy bunny. One or two days later, her bottom started to dry! She was dry for a couple of days, meanwhile she finished Baytrill course and still going with the EC meds. Unfortunately she started to wet herself again a week ago. She wasn’t as wet but was much much more smellier than before. We booked another vet appointment on Monday.

                          Yesterday we started to give her sugar free cranberry juice, my fiance saw her binkied – she haven’t binkied since the beginning of this. She didn’t binky in front of me but she was behaving really excited and hopping on me any chance she had, begging to be snuggled. I noticed today she is much drier than yesterday and her litter box smelled much nicer now. I don’t know if it’s a coincidence. I don’t know if this is just the beginning of her good-then-bad cycle.

                          Her EC treatment has probably just one or two doses to go. But this weekend I want to work really hard on re-training her litter box manner from scratch, in case she was disturbed from her previous sickness and forgot about it. If I can eliminate behavioural factor, that will give the vet more clue on troubleshooting.


                        • BinkyBunny
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                            I am glad to hear there has been improvement, but I understand the concern of a rollercoaster ride with it. So baffling though to try to figure out what is going on. Another good resource that I use when I get stumped is (along with asking my rabbit-savvy vet) is asking Dana Krempels. She is an excellent rabbit-savvy resource and might be worth giving a try things go downhill again.
                            http://www.allexperts.com/user.cgi?m=4&expID=35789&catID=703

                            And Yeah for Binkies!  She seems to be feeling better too! 


                          • Megan143
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                              Thank you BB, I sent a question to Dr Dana, will see what she replies.

                              Unfortunately it did went down hill again after one dry day In the weekend we bought them an extra litter box twice the size as before, so our two buns can comfortable fit in one litter box without anyone’s bottom sticking out. Still that didn’t work. She’s fine using the new box when she knows she’s about to pee, but she still pees/dribbles wherever she sleeps.
                              We took her to the vet yesterday, the vet took her blood and will test for renal failure. Vet said if there’s nothing wrong with her kidney, she would try estrogen supplement in case it’s something caused by the spay surgery (vet said it’s usually given to dogs and cats but theoratically it might make sense for rabbits, but she will do some research first). If none of that works, we might just have to accept it’s an Aurie thing, not caused by medical issue.
                              I’ll continue posting updates when the blood test comes back.


                            • vanessa
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                                I had a bunny with EC. The treatment isn’t guarnateed, and the damage done (if it is EC), can’t always be reversed. I treated my bunnies partner for EC because the two were in close contact. Her symptoms did clear up. I do hope it is not EC. I had one succesful treatment, and one not. Does she hop normally?


                              • Megan143
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                                  Posted By vanessa on 4/18/2016 8:53 PM

                                  I had a bunny with EC. The treatment isn’t guarnateed, and the damage done (if it is EC), can’t always be reversed. I treated my bunnies partner for EC because the two were in close contact. Her symptoms did clear up. I do hope it is not EC. I had one succesful treatment, and one not. Does she hop normally?

                                  Yes my Aurie hops fine, she can easily hop on our laps if we’re sitting on dining chair, last week I opened the roof of their condo (90cm tall) she hopped directly into my arms, she was too excited! (which also make me think it’s not kidney failure as I read bunnies with kidney failure are often depressed too?). But like you said, I was confused with when will EC treatment show effect too, I saw the standard treatment length is 28-30 days but some people said their bunnies being on it for 2 months.


                                • vanessa
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                                    Yeesh! 2 months is crazy long for Panacur. It affects the blood count. I was worried about using it just for those 4 weeks! Symptoms of EC also come and go after the initial recovery. They can reappear months or years after. It may not be EC at all. But the treatment is definitely not clear. I’m stumped though. It’s really hard to tell what it could be. I’d be really interested to hear what Dana thinks.


                                  • Megan143
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                                      Update:
                                      Blood work came out, Aurie’s kidney and liver are completely fine. Vet worried the urine culture result had a small chance to be false negative so she prescribed Septrin for 5 days, it was flavored so Aurie loved it. She was still quite wet when she finished the course, I wanted to wait for a couple of days before visiting vet again because I wanted her to catch a break from all these medications, but surprisingly she has been quite well in the past 4 days. She still peed on her beddings but much less frequent – now only once every two days. and tail is slightly damp on the base rather than completely wet all over, you can see the fluff now. so I’m pretty happy and will keep watching her and encourage her litter box manner.

                                      Dr Dana replied with similar suggested as my vet, I’m very grateful. I’ll post her reply here for reference:
                                      Dear Megan,

                                      Your vet has been very thorough, and has ruled out several possibilities that I would have suggested. However, there are a few other things that might be the culprit:

                                      1. Anaerobic bacterial infection. Anaerobes are notoriously hard to culture, as exposure to the air kills them. Very special (and pain in the butt) sampling and handling techniques are necessary to obtain an anaerobic culture with live organisms. If this were my bunny, I would ask to try an antibiotic known to have broad efficacy against anaerobes (which Baytril does not), such as dual-acting Penicillin G/Benzathine (50,000-75,000IU/kg Q 48 hr), chloramphenicol, or metronidazole.

                                      2. Hysterectomy damage. Though this is far more common in humans (whose bladder support ligaments can be damaged upon hysterectomy, and our upright posture makes this worse), it’s possible that scar tissue or other damage (nerve?) might have occurred during her spay, making her incontinent.

                                      3. Hyperthyroidism. This is kind of weird, but we have had a few cases of bunnies with incontinence having bloodwork done to check hormone levels, and found to be hyperthyroid. It’s recently been shown in humans that hyperthyroid women have a significantly higher rate of urinary incontinence than normal, healthy females. So that might be something to check.

                                      4. Low estrogen levels, which are always going to be the case in a spayed rabbit, can also contribute to urinary incontinence.

                                      Some of the above are treatable, and some might not be easily treatable. But I hope this gives you a few new avenues to take.

                                      Good luck!

                                      Dana


                                    • jerseygirl
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                                        Thanks for this update. Very informative and may help future readers experiencing the same issue.
                                        The feedback gives a few other avenues to investigate.

                                        Septrin for 5 days, it was flavored so Aurie loved it. She was still quite wet when she finished the course, I wanted to wait for a couple of days before visiting vet again because I wanted her to catch a break from all these medications, but surprisingly she has been quite well in the past 4 days.

                                        Perhaps a longer course on the Septrin then?

                                        This is not likely but I’m gonna throw it out there anyway .  Could rabbit syphilis (aka Treponema cuniculi) be a possible cause? She doesn’t have typical symptoms (crusty lesions) but it can cause some incontinence due to inflammation of the urethra. It’s also something where symptoms can come and go. It’s normally treated with a round of penicillin injections. 

                                        I hope you’ve been seeing further improvements!


                                      • Megan143
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                                          Some good news finally!
                                          Last weekend Aurie started to wet herself pretty bad again that’s when my partner came up with a theory, he thinks the on-and-off cycle only makes sense if whatever bacteria inside her was killed by the antibiotics at first, but her tail and bottom was still not completely clean so that kept re-infecting her. So we bought some baby wipes and wipe her every couple of hours, hoped the alcohol will kill off the bad stuff and also helps her fur dry out easier, and it worked! only after one day she improved significantly, stopped peeing on beddings and her bottom is fluffy again. We’re still wiping her just to be sure, but we’re very optimistic this time, she’s already had 5 dry days in a roll!
                                          If she’s still good next week, we probably can stop wiping her with baby wipes, tell the vet about this good news, and add the additional floors back to their condo! (I took off the floors because it was too hard when I had to change beddings twice a dayT_T), hope that will make the buns even happier!


                                        • Bam
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                                            That is clever! Thank you for the update! This can really be useful for other members who encounter similar problems. Keeping my fingers crossed that she’ll stay dry. How relieved she must feel =)


                                          • jerseygirl
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                                              Good to hear! I hope the 5 days dry turns into many more.
                                              Keep an eye out for Water Wipes if you want to continue wiping her tail but want to avoid the alcohol. They’re made up of water and grapefruit seed extract. You might find them in Target, Big W, possibly supermarkets.

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                                          Forum HOUSE RABBIT Q & A Wetness around tail, behavioral or medical issue?