Bonding two males-*Fight*

[kmurphy]

I have a neutered male, holland lop named Kraken who is 3 years old. We were looking to bond him, so we went to a rabbit rescue 2 hours away to go on speed dates. After trying 3 bunnies, the bonder said that none of the bunnies we tried would work at that time because all Kraken wanted to to was hump them. After going there 3 more times over the next 3 months we finally found a bunny that tolerated Kraken’s humping and didn’t run away, and this rabbit also humped him back(and sprayed him with urine…ewwww!). The rabbit was not really what we were looking for, a male (we were looking at females as we heard they are easier to bond with males) and he is a mini-lop (over twice the size of Kraken). The mini-lop was also previously bonded with his brother until a vicious fight broke out and the Mini-lop is now missing most of his ear. None of this stopped us, but rather it was just different than what we expected. The bonder was still hesitant to let us adopt any of the bunnies as it wasn’t “love at first sight”… Anyway we asked about fostering the Mini-lop (as that was the only bunny the bonder seemed to consider as an option),  to see if we could bond them. After talking to the owner of the rescue, the bonder agreed to let us foster indefinitely to see if we could bond the two males. 

So we took the mini-lop home on Monday January 18th and started to try and bond them. The mini-lop is super chill during the day, sleeping and relaxing, but at night he has a ton of energy. Which is fine, he is in an expen and can run and binky and destroy things as he pleases. The bonding has been going ok, Kraken has definitely stopped humping as much, maybe once every few days. However, at night the mini-lop will start to chase Kraken and humping him. Kraken gets quite scared and will back his butt up to the corner and some times lunge if he gets too stressed. Kraken also will run away and the mini-lop will chase him. The weird thing is, the mini-lop will sometime binky as he is chasing Kraken. He seems to think it is a game or something. The thing is they get along fine during the day, they will sleep together, eat together, and sometimes groom each other but that is still sometimes rare. But in the evenings and at night, the mini-lop will just chase Kraken most of the time and try to hump him. There is a stuffed animal in the bonding pen and the mini-lop will sometimes hump that if we put it in front of him as he is trying to chase Kraken and that gives Kraken a bit of a break. We use a squirt bottle to stop the chasing and humping because the mini-lop is hard of hearing so loud sounds don’t bother him. 

I am just at a loss as to what to do. This sweet mini-lop has a huge personality change at night and just goes crazy. Has anyone experienced this? How do we move forward in the bonding process? We seem to be making no progress with him. Kraken has made a lot of progress as he doesn’t hump the mini-lop that much anymore. But we seem to be stuck in a rut. Please help, we are thinking of giving up soon but I really don’t want to as I have grown fond of the mini-lop. Please let me know if you have any questions about the process that I am doing if you think that will help you give better advice. Any advice would be much appreciated!! 

[LittlePuffyTail]

Are they living together 24/7 right now?

[kmurphy]

Not really, they have been together all weekend while we have been supervising and together last night with semi-supervision ( I slept next to them). I don’t know if I should separate them tomorrow when I go to class but I probably will.

[kmurphy]

There has been less chasing and humping yesterday and today! Fingers crossed! I have another question sort of. I have been giving the bunnies a bigger space because that seems to be better with the humping and chasing. However, with the bigger space, they don’t spend a lot of time together. They seem to be doing their own thing. Is this ok? It helps them stay civil but they also don’t interact as much.

[kmurphy]

The mini-lop just did a brief little chase. But other than that they seem to be completely ignoring each other. They are coexisting but don’t really seem to be friends or anything. I think I’m in the process of cementing. They have been together for over 24 hours with out any fights but some chasing and humping. We have opened up the bunny condo for them but only the Mini-lop seems to be going in it often. There hasn’t been any territorial behavior but Kraken doesn’t really seem to go into the Condo that much. Anyone have any advice? Or even words of support. I never realized how stressful bonding would be.

[BlacknWhite]

That’s better than fighting! I am going to bond my boys, so I seperated the pen and put them in it. They completely ignored eachother, so your not the only one . Then I let them sniff eachother not seperated. They just walked around eachother, no contact. It’s always better to have a indifferent bunny than a bloody bunny I guess.

[kmurphy]

Thanks BlacknWhite! I am still struggling with this bond. The mini-lop still chases Kraken a great deal and tries to hump him. He will also hump the stuffed animal in their pen (aptly named Decoy). The mini-lop will ask Kraken for grooms and Kraken won’t groom him and often asks for grooms back and then the mini-lop will chase him and try to hump. Kraken tries to hid in corners so the mini-lop can’t get to his butt and will lunge at him sometimes. How do I get them more peaceful? They seem to still be struggling with dominance…

[kmurphy]

Kraken also humped the mini-lop last night but the mini-lop didn’t seem to notice at all. He was too busy eating an apple stick and Kraken is pretty tiny compared to him.

[kmurphy]

Bad news guys… We were gone today for about 2 hours and when we came back there was fur everywhere. He used a hairdryer on cool to part the fur and check for injuries but other than missing fur, there was no bite marks thankfully.
We separated them for a bit and then put them into their carrier together for a few hours. They were grooming each other a little in the carrier so then we put them back in their semi-neutral pen that they have been in for the past week.
Previously they haven’t every had any actual fights only chasing, circling, and humping.
They have been ok in the pen together as of now but we are obviously shaken by this incident. What should we do? Can we ever trust them together?

[Mikey]

You need to keep them separated! They can kill one another, specially if you are not around! Get them their own cages and do not let them out together unless you are there to break up their fights. Do not leave them alone. EVER. Until they are 100percent bonded!

Chasing is bad. Circling leads to fur pulling (which can leave irritated, infected, and/or bloody skin) which is never good. Humping is only ok if you pull them off after a few seconds

Have you read about how to bond two rabbits? Do you have a proper game plan? Now is the time to get serious about it

[Love4Bunny]

Posted By kmurphy on 2/25/2016 7:37 AM
Thanks BlacknWhite! I am still struggling with this bond. The mini-lop still chases Kraken a great deal and tries to hump him. He will also hump the stuffed animal in their pen (aptly named Decoy). The mini-lop will ask Kraken for grooms and Kraken won’t groom him and often asks for grooms back and then the mini-lop will chase him and try to hump. Kraken tries to hid in corners so the mini-lop can’t get to his butt and will lunge at him sometimes. How do I get them more peaceful? They seem to still be struggling with dominance…

Did you do bathtub bonding sessions in the beginning? I would go back a step and do bathtub bonding till you see one submit to the other. It was recommended I use vanilla essence to help with grooming, and it worked for my rabbits (not sure if this is a thing people usually use). I would house them separately till you see some healthy consistency in their interactions. It may be longer than you expect, and certainly more stressful, but just go slow. Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t always think bunnies have to be “love at first sight” (which is what we all hope for). If that were the case, then I imagine a lot of bunny pals wouldn’t be together.

[kmurphy]

Thanks for your concern Mikey. I have read a great deal about the process but every circumstance is different. They have their own xpens. They are separated now.

Love4Bunny- They were started with bathtub sessions for a few weeks and then moved to a neutral location in an xpen for short dates there. There was humping by both but no actual fighting. For about 3 weeks we did the short dates in a neutral location, each time allowing them to hangout a little longer. Over a week ago we moved them to a semi-neutral location we they we thought they were almost bonded. We were in the cementing stage, I thought. They didn’t fight, only about one hump a day (usually at night when they were really energetic), there was grooming from both of them, not as much as we would have liked but we thought that would develop over time. There was “mild chasing”. The Mini-lop would touch Krakens tail and he would hop a few steps away and that would happen a few times. We think it was because he wanted to hump him.
The bathtub wasn’t the best sessions for us but putting them in their carrier was so we have gone back to that. However, I am definitely ready to give up. Kraken is now quite stress and I’m not sure I want to continue with a bond we don’t think will work out.

[kmurphy]

I should have clarified that the circling, chasing and humping all happen early on in the bonding processes. We were still having a little chasing as described above and about one hump a day. All of what I have read says that this can happen even with fully bonded pairs.

[Love4Bunny]

Yes, I would agree that humping happens occasionally after bonding. I discovered that my rabbits tried to renegotiate territory in the earlier stages (going from neutral – familiar), so I’m unsure if that’s also what you’re experiencing. It’s hard to know if one bunny is going to be headstrong, as opposed to obliging, but I wonder if any of the bunnies Kraken humped over the first 3 months would’ve been more willing to take a submissive role to him. With bonding, I’d always felt that I needed to see a clear hierarchy from the beginning to proceed to the next step with my rabbits. Of course, they don’t make it easy for you, but I reached a point where I knew Crysta wouldn’t fight back, and even though she ignored Thor in familiar territory a few times by refusing grooming, she would almost always groom him when inside the pen (now she is the one asking for the most grooming and they are both readily reciprocal). Additionally, she would stress when she couldn’t see him, and she binkied in their common space. Thesee things helped me decide whether or not the bond was going to be best for Crysta (the newer and younger rabbit). One other thing – I had to make their living space smaller, unfortunately. I had a nice big set up, all fresh and clean to go, but it just was not conducive to a peaceful situation, and provided more room for Thor to chase (it was just this one darn room of familiarity!). They get daily run time, but the revised living space and elimination (and eventual reintegration) of territorial items solved a lot of the issues I was having.

[Mikey]

The thing is, you know the new rabbit has a past of aggression (the fight leading to a missing ear) and you were also advised not to adopt him. Take bonding slower, if at all. Stress can kill a rabbit as well as vicious fights. Take everything slower. Take it back a step. You might have to fully restart the process. If you notice your first rabbit isnt feel any less stressed after a few days, it might be best to quit it

[BinkyBunny]

I hear you! Bonding is stressful even under mild circumstances! I remember I would have my husband take over, until I could get my zen back on, because internally he doesn’t freak out as much as I do. And I know that affected the process. I have had easy bonding, and very difficult bondings. It IS stressful regardless so that is normal.

I also think that was a very smart idea to offer to “Foster”.  I am surprised though that they said your bunny couldn’t be matched with another bunny because he was humping — that is normal part of bonding. You can let it go on for a little while (never face first though) IF the other bunny allows it and doesn’t fight. When I was supervising bonding I would let the humping go on for about 10 seconds or so each time before stopping and distracting.

I wouldn’t give up just yet as it is also normal for their to be ups and downs, and it sounds like after the fight they settled down a bit. It can take a few months sometimes (how long has it been?). And then at least you know you gave it a full try before you decide to end the “Fostering”. (especially since you are bonding yourself to the new bunny).

When you came home and it was obvious they had had a fight, what were they doing when you walked in? Were they still aggressive or fearful or what was their behavior? It sounds like they settled back to where they were before without much issue.

Have you done the car ride bonding yet? On rare occasions, I have found that stress bonding actually adds to the stress. I had bunnies fighting IN the car while we do the drive bonding. (Now THAT”s a serious case).

We are also lucky to have a rescue around her that does bonding for you! One of our members Markbun had the most difficult pair you could imagine. He tried everything. He tried out SaveAbunny’s bonding services — left them there for a bit and wham…bonded — or least well on their way. Not sure if you have that option around — it seems to be a pretty unique service!

I forgot to mention — when rabbits are being aggressive toward each other, chasing etc.  That is actually the time in which “binkies” are used as defense and as a form of “fight”.    Wild males do this when they are in battle or proving their strength to each other. It’s like showing off their “muscles” 

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