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Forum BEHAVIOR Should I try to litter train him in his cage??

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    • Theodorusrex
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        Hi Guys,

        Relatively new to binkybunny so hello everyone. I’m a new bunny momma to a 9 month old Holland Lop called Theodore (he gets Theo most of the time, his Daddy calls him Theodorusrex). When we adopted him his toilet habits were already relatively good in that he only pee’s and mostly only poops under his shelf in his cage with the occasional poop in  his pen but very occasionally. He has never pee’d anywhere other than his cage which is great. However we want to gradually increase his freedom to roam and therefore we don’t want him to rely so heavily on his cage when nature calls. 

        We got him a litter tray to put around the house as he has free reign of the downstairs when me or my fiance are in the house. He won’t use it though – whenever he needs to go he just scratches at doors etc until we take him back to his cage – he lives in the kitchen but we often bring him into the front room and close the door when we are watching tv etc to give him company and so we can keep an eye on him. 

        My question is really – do we put a litter tray in his cage and try to encourage him to only poop/pee in his tray in the hope that this will then transfer to using the tray in other parts of the house? We have put a tray in his cage but to no real avail yet. I’m afraid I’m new to this and totally unsure of what is the best way to approach it! 

        PS he was neutered 2 weeks ago and I did extensive searches on old posts but couldn’t find an exact answer to my question – I apologise if the answer is somewhere already and I’ve missed it!

        Thanks in advance. 


      • skysblue
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          If the place he is going to have roam time in is far from and or making his cage litter inaccessible, is better to have a 2nd litter tray, else keeping just one litter tray in the cage is just fine. A lot of times the rabbit find its way back home and take care its business. You can just simply place a tray on top of the spot the rabbit usually pees in. You can even use that tray later after the rabbit is familiar with it and place outside the cage, serving as a secondary tray.


        • Azerane
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            Bandit used to run back to his cage to use his tray from wherever he was in the house (99% of the time). He always returned to pee, occasionally I’d find the odd poop in another room.

            He definitely needs a tray in his cage though, at the very least it will help you with cleaning once he’s gotten the hang of using it. Just make sure you’re picking up all his poops and putting them in the tray, and if he makes a pee mess, wipe it up with paper towel and put that in the tray too. You can spray the affected area with 50/50 vinegar water solution and wipe it dry.

            If you’re closing him off from his cage in other rooms of the house I’d also recommend having a litter tray in that room. He needs to be able to feel like he can go when he’s there, rather than holding it in, so needs access to a tray at all times. When you bring in a new tray to that room, put it in a nice secure place, like a corner and instead of just a fresh tray with fresh litter, put some of the soiled litter in it so that it smells like his tray and he gets an idea of what’s supposed to happen


          • Patti
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              I agree with everyone here.  I would like to add a few things for a new bunny mom!

              Make sure his litter tray is big enough, otherwise, he’ll pee outside of it.  A hint to this is his pan is wet underneath.

              Also make sure he doesn’t have a urinary infection.  That’ll cause peeing in unwanted places. 

              PLEASE do not use maple or pine shavings.  The oils in them will cause liver/kidney damage.  I use Aspen shavings for my Daisy’s trays.

              Use timothy hay – the others have too much protein and will create physical problems.

              If he ever gets fleas (from being outside in a pen with nosy neighbor pets, etc.), have some ditamaceous earth available.  It’s chemical-free and can be found in large home improvement stores.  It interrupts the flea life cycle, including killing the eggs.  Just dust your hand a little with it and rub it on his back. 

              Make sure you get the food/garden grade and not the one for pools.  Then, you puff it under his bedding and in corners of his room.  I can’t speak well enough about this stuff.  In my town, it’s $250 to treat a bunny for fleas and you get nothing for home treatment.  The kids in the lower apartment had two large dogs who, unkown to me, were loaded with fleas and they eventually traveled upstairs.  Not only that, Daisy and I used to sit outside on a nice day.  I paid the $250 a couple of times but had to get a long-term solution for unhatched flea eggs.  DE was it!!!  No problems ever again!!!  And the kids, with their dogs, have left, too!!!

              Watch your bunnies droppings.  If they become smaller than usual, it could be a real intestinal problem.  Keep baby food like kale and carrot on hand, e.g., to keep his gut moving. 

              There is so much more to say, but, you know where this place is now.  In terms of fragility, vets equate bunnies with birds. 

              My Daisy (Himalayan dwarf) is eight years old now. 

                   


            • LBJ10
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                While diatomaceous earth is relatively safe to use around bunnies, I would recommend avoiding using it in a manner where the bunny could potentially inhale to dust. It can cause respiratory problems if inhaled into the lungs. I just wanted to make a note of that.


              • Theodorusrex
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                  Hi guys- thanks for all your useful tips.
                  Update though:
                  I put a litter tray in his cage – with some of his bedding underneath and some rabbit friendly litter from the pet store on top and some fresh hay for him to nibble in the corner.
                  He is still peeing and pooping under his shelf in his cage – I have been relentlessly and religiously removing the poop and pee and putting it in his tray to absolutely no avail. He hasn’t used the tray once.
                  Last night I thought perhaps if we removed his shelf from his cage and replace where the shelf was with the tray (just as a purely temporary measure until he realises he has to poop in the tray, when i was going to replace the shelf) and he didn’t poo at all from 9pm last night until midday today. I of course panicked – replaced the shelf and he pooped under it immediately.
                  I’m at my wits end we’ve been trying with absolutely no success for 3 weeks.
                  He has a tray that stays in the kitchen and living room too but he has never used it either.

                  Also as an aside – he peed on my mums sofa at the weekend when we took him down to visit – he has NEVER peed outside his cage anywhere else and 2 weekends previous he spent the day at mums and pooped/peed in his cage as normal.

                  Any ideas why we’re not making progress? (digressing actually!!) or do we just have a really stubborn bunny on our hands? I’m out of ideas.

                  Thanks.


                • Patti
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                    I hear your frustration. I did some googling and found some links for you. It sounds like he’s marking his territory. That’s why he peed on you Mum’s sofa. He’s young. So it could be a behavioral thing not linked to neutering. It could most probably be a reaction to his surgery and he wants to make sure everything is still his. You have to be patient with this.

                    Relax and read the links I’ve found. Then read ’em again when you’re more relaxed. lol He should be confined to a couple of rooms with litter boxes until he masters them. You’ll be able to monitor any health issues much better, especially the appearance of his poop. He’ll mark every corner of your home and furniture because each will be new to him. This article explains it nicely: http://www.therabbithouse.com/behaviour/problem-litter-training.asp

                    THIS article suggests, when all else fails, to rig up his food over his litter pan so he can stand and pee when he eats. It also gives the ideas of other bunny moms. Some are pretty good. http://www.budgetbunny.ca/2012/09/13/when-bunny-wont-use-the-litterbox-10-useful-tips-to-improve-litterbox-habits/

                    My Daisy has her own room (with my computer in it lol). I put down plastic sheeting and throw area rugs on it. Her hutch is there with her food and water. I surround that with a moveable bunny play pen. Her food, water, her hutch and pan are in there BUT it gives her an opening to the kitchen where I have throw rugs for her. In the kitchen, I have another hutch (meaning an upside down cardboard box with a cardboard lid – like a big shoe box. You can get these free at the supermarket.) and another pan. I put her hay in her pans in addition to a separate box in her room.

                    When I want to put Daisy on the bed with me to play, I make sure she hasn’t had water for at LEAST an hour. She’s an older bun. Don’t give T-Rex too many fruits – they have a lot of water and sugar.

                    It’s a journey between a bunny and it’s mum. You just have to be patient, confine his area and figure out what works!


                  • Azerane
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                      Can you fit the litter tray under the shelf?


                    • Theodorusrex
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                        I’ve attached 2 pictures of his set up. The grey cage is larger and is his current cage – the picture of the pen was taken before we upgraded his hutch (the blue one was given to us when we adopted him). 

                        You can see that this shelf would not fit a litter tray underneath – the 3 trays he has are corner litter trays which definitely would not fit. He is locked in his pen with access to his hutch at all times during the night and when noone is in and is allowed free reign of kitchen (where his pen is) when someone is home and then occasionally he comes into the living room with us – where he doesn’t have access to his cage, hence why we really want to get him using his litter boxes. 

                        Thanks for the links etc- will have a good read, I really appreciate your help. Does anyone have any further suggestions now you can see his set up? 


                      • Theodorusrex
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                        • Vienna Blue in France
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                            Your bun is a twin of my rainbow bun Muffin….. !!!!!!

                            If the ‘shelf’ is covered over, maybe that’s what he likes, being hidden…..
                            You could try putting newspaper under the shelf and then gradually moving the paper (like training for kittens and puppies).
                            (Move part of the soiled newspaper that is still smelly too so he gets the idea the paper is for wees)

                            Or can you not remove the shelf and put a cardboard box there (on its side) and then put the tray in the carboard box… that way its bigger to be able to put the littertray in and also he gets to go hide while he does his business.

                            I gave mine a huge cardboard box to play in and she thought “great, an indoor toilet area, thanks !! (sigh !!)
                            So I put a smaller tray in there with the paper and shredded paper that I use in her big tray, and hey presto she went in there the first time !!
                            So her play area and toilet are in the same (big!) cardbaord box…. so what….?! LOL

                            Good luck !


                          • Theodorusrex
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                              The idea to replace the shelf with a cardboard box is genius! I will definitely try that if I can find a box a suitable size. His litter tray is quite big as he’s quite a big rabbit – not really on the grand scheme- but in a sense that the smaller litter trays just wouldn’t be suitable.

                              I’m hoping this works! If it doesn’t the newspaper trick could be an idea except I have a feeling Theo would just dig it out from under his shelf as he digs out almost all his bedding before he does his business. He has such a loving, playful nature – but boy is he stubborn!!

                              Thanks again, will let you know if I have any progress with him.


                            • Vienna Blue in France
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                                The pleasure is all mine if i’m called a Genius for it !!!!!! (tongue sticky outy to all you out there you thought of it too, but didn’t write it down !! LOL !!!)
                                You obviously have a shy rabbit when it comes to toilet habits !!

                                I’ve got a big bun (that’s an ‘n’ not an ‘m’ !!) and she uses a cat litter tray but her ‘travel’ tray is half the size (one with hooks on the back) – its very sweet her settling herself into it to be clean !!!
                                I’ve fixed the cat litter tray with one screw to the back wall of her ‘toilet’ area, so she can’t play “toss the tray !” – I’d advise you to try to fix it down somehow too just in case your Rex decides to do the same.
                                If you find a nice cardboard box (though it might be temporary before you DIY yourself a wooden box toilet area…. be aware he might try and play “tosh the box” too !!!
                                Let us know…. (“Genius”……” oh that’s made my w-e !)


                              • Theodorusrex
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                                  Well I removed his shelf and replaced it with a cardboard box on its side with his tray inside it- all fingers and toes crossed!!

                                  As an aside, does anyone know If he starts to hold in his poop again will this affect his health? Can he develop GI stasis from holding it in or will he just eventually have to go?


                                • Patti
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                                    It’s not that a bunny will deliberately hold it in, it’s that his gut won’t move it out. He will never go under untreated stasis conditions. He’ll die.

                                    If he starts to hunch over, become listless, refuse food, tiny or no poops – he’s in a dire medical emergency and needs immediate vet care. Sometimes, even weather extremes can confuse a bun’s intestines. From Binky Bunny: https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/aft/84043/Default.aspx

                                    Make sure he’s eating timothy hay and keep the treats few – like no more than 10-15% of his diet. Rely more on uncooked green leafy vegetables/herbs like parsley, cilantro, kale and collards than fruits. If ANY thing gives him diarrhea, stop using it immediately. Here is a Binky Bunny list for foods but read it carefully – some are more gaseous than others:

                                    https://binkybunny.com/BUNNYINFO/VeggieList/tabid/144/Default.aspx

                                    Diarrhea advice: http://canigivemyrabbit.com/what-can-i-give-my-rabbit-for-diarrhea/

                                    GI Stasis: http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/ileus.html and http://www.rabbit.org/chapters/se-pennsylvania/GIStasis.htm

                                    Keep on hand baby food like squash, carrots, kale – just in case. Also pedialyte and gas treatments for infants. If you feel you have to forcefeed him and or give gas treatment, call the vet first. He’ll have to go in and be seen when you’re not experienced.

                                    The baby foods keep for a month in the fridge. I give my 4-pound Daisy a dot each of two kinds if I get worried. I put them on an already warm little plate and let it sit a moment or so to take the chill off and then put parsley on it.

                                    Even tho’ pedialyte instructions say it’s only good for a couple of days, well, I dunno. It can be divvied up and frozen to be mixed with water later. I don’t think, personally, it’s the ingredients in it but that it’s all-natural and sweet that’ll make bunny want to drink it and keep hydrated. I’ve used unfrozen pedialyte four days after opening without problems and by that time Daisy was good. I’ve never had to give her any gas treatments even tho’ I have it (watch for the expiration dates!).

                                    It was the string of 90 degrees days that screwed her up, despite my marble tiles (about a $1 each) to keep her cool and my frozen cold packs.


                                  • Theodorusrex
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                                      Patti, thanks for your reply.
                                      He just didn’t go to the toilet for around 14 hours earlier in the week when we took the shelf he likes to poop under out of his hutch – when we replaced it he went to the toilet immediately which is what made me think he was holding it in – I don’t think he was unwell as he was eating normally and very energetic as usual.
                                      I will definitely bear your advice in mind though – we are careful what we feed him he only gets a small amount of good quality pellets, plenty of timothy hay and leafy veg in the evening.

                                      BUT – I HAVE GOOD NEWS. WE HAVE POOP IN THE LITTER TRAY, I REPEAT WE HAVE POOP IN THE LITTER TRAY!
                                      And nowhere else – just a lovely pile of about 30 pellets in his tray when we went to see him this morning.
                                      He peed right beside the tray too – so we’re hopeful he will get in actually in the tray with a bit of practice!!

                                      Vienna – can’t thank you enough for your helpful suggestions!!


                                    • Patti
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                                        Good to hear!!! He looks adorable, btw.

                                        I know I’m a little draconian when it comes to care. lol A vet told me once that, in terms of fragility, rabbits are considered like birds.

                                        14 hours? That’s a little warning sign amidst the good. I wonder if he was temporarily constipated. I honestly don’t believe that rabbits have the physiological and mental capacity to hold it in. They can poop and pee while they eat. Or, just afterward. It depends on the breed. None of them are able to hack up fur balls.

                                        Constipation:    http://animals.mom.me/rabbits-veget…-3277.html

                                         Well, it doesn’t matter – you brought him around!!!


                                      • Patti
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                                          lol  By the way, at the top of this very page, beginning in red is:  

                                          BUNNY 911 – If your rabbit hasn’t eaten or pooped in 12-24 hours, call a vet immediately!
                                          Okay.  I’ll shut up now.  lol


                                        • Theodorusrex
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                                            We were very worried about him – we replaced his shelf to see if it would change anything and he immediately ran under and did about 50 poops. Like about 10s after we put the shelf in he was under there pooping. However it is possible he was constipated too – who knows. Had he not have went under his shelf immediately we would have called the vet.

                                            We may have only had him for a little over a month but we have done extensive research in all aspects of rabbit care. We do everything we can to give him the best care possible.

                                            I appreciate you taking the time to give us the advice though, the more you know the better.


                                          • Paradigm
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                                              Hi Theo, I wouldn’t worry about it too much – especially as he went to the toilet straight away.

                                              I would suggest that rabbits can hold it in – if they didn’t have an ability to abstain from toileting on the spot we wouldn’t be able to train them at all and Theo wouldn’t scratch at the door to be able to get to his litter box.

                                              In any case, glad to hear you’ve found a solution!


                                            • Theodorusrex
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                                                Thanks Paradigm – He’s been using his tray like a litter angel for the past 2 days. I am a proud bunny mama!!


                                              • Vienna Blue in France
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                                                  You’re most very welcome for any info that helped along the way – that’s what these kind of forums are for – finding solutions together

                                                  YAY !

                                                  One day he’ll start chomping the cardboard box…. but if you can hang hay somewhere so he can chomp and poop at the same time (in one end straight out the other!!) then he’ll be a very happy bun !!

                                                  Once he’s got used to the litterbox you’ll be able to start moving it to see if he follows it…. or remove the cardboard box… or replace it with a shelf…. but do one thing at a time so 1) he gets slowly used to it and 2) so if it doesn’t work you know what it was that didn’t work…

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                                              Forum BEHAVIOR Should I try to litter train him in his cage??