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BINKYBUNNY FORUMS

Forum BONDING 2 males, introduced a new one, fights break out *PROUD BUNNY PARENT UPDATE*

  • This topic has 12sd replies, 3 voices, and was last updated 8 years ago by Mikey.
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    • Mikey
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        Please check the last post for the update!  I am a very proud bunny mama for my three boys

        Hi, im a new poster but ive read several posts here in the past before and after getting our first two boys. Blue is a Mini Rex (neutered), Bombur is a Netherland Dwarf (will be neutered once blood work is cleared), and Badger is a Dutch (not neutered yet). Every bunny has their own cage, but i have a question on that later in this post

        We, my boyfriend and i, bought Bombur and Blue about two weeks apart several months ago. They act like best friends most of the time. Occasionally Bombur would go after Blue (biting or kicking) but Blue would put him in his place and they would play again like normal. Yesterday we went to the petstore with the boys and found a cute little Dutch who seemed lonely. We picked him up and he cuddled our necks and sat on our shoulders. He seemed like a nice little guy, so we asked to go in a room so all of the bunnies could meet. We stayed in the room for about an hour. All three boys played and slept while in there. No fights or signs of aggression was shown by any of them. Since everyone got along, we decided to get the Dutch male at the store. We brought him home last night. He stayed in his cage and we let Bombur and Blue out to sniff and do their daily exploring of the living room (they are litter trained so we leave them out as often as we are home). Everyone was fine with this. Blue even cuddled with Badger on the other side of the cage. It was very cute.

        Now today, we introduce them all out of their cages in a part of the apartment they are not normally allowed in. We introduced one by one into the room. It was fine for about five minutes. After that, Bombur bit Badger and Badger bit Bombur. They were biting eachother and running in circles. Then it calmed down. Bombur went to the litter box we set up and munched on hay and Badger explored a little more. Then Blue came up and bit him. They started biting and running in circles again. Then they added kicking an fur started flying everywhere. We broke them up and everyone went into their respective cages again. Blue is slightly bruised around his thighs and back area. Badger was missing a patch of fur on his shoulder and his skin was all red where the fur had been plucked; it almost looked bloody but it has not bled, so i believe its just bruised and painful. As everyone is back in their own cages, Blue and Badger are laying near each other in loaf form, sleeping. Bombur is doing what Bombur does best: eating and sitting in his cage litter box.

        How do we bond the three males together now? I thought it would be ok with slow introductions in a neutral territory, from what ive read. I very likely could have misunderstood though. Another issue thats come up is now Bombur will try to mount Blue since meeting the new bunny yesterday, and when Blue gets mad enough, Blue  flings him across the floor. When i say fling, i mean literally kicking him up off the ground and kick/throwing him across the floor. Bombur seems unphased and will keep trying to mount Blue until he gives up a few tries later. Is this normal? Bombur has only every humped his toys and snow before, so i did not think introducing another rabbit will make him want to hump more often. 

        Our plan now is to let Bombur and Blue out as normal in the living room and keep Badger in his cage. We plan to do this for two weeks, then try to slow introduce them again in a neutral area. Until then, their cages are all in the living room next to eachother so they can all sniff and see one another, with Badger in the middle. If they still scuffle in two weeks, we plan to wait another month when we can get Badger neutered. After Badger is neutered and healed, we plan to try again. All the while their cages will still be next to one another. If they still fight with Badger after everyone is neutered, what should our next step be? 

        I also want to add, every bunny is still eating, sleeping, and doing their normal bunny things as normal. Im sorry for the wall of text. Ive never had this happen with any past pets so im very stressed out. We do have a back up option if need be; my boyfriends mom is willing to take Badger as long as we help her with him the first few months since shes never had a rabbit. She has babysat for Bombur and Blue before so we trust her should Badger need to be rehomed to her


      • Paradigm
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          Ahg! Computer crashed and ate my post. 

          Sorry to hear about all that fighting, it must have been very stressful.

          (Had some weird formatting recently – wanted to test out spacing. Actual reply will be coming shortly!)


        • Mikey
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            More so for the boyfriend and i rather than the bunnies it seems. Everyone is acting pretty normal yet. Blue seems to only get upset whenever Badger gets more than a few minutes of attention. However, Badger is even more separated from the other two now as it seems he has snuffles, which explains why he was alone in a cage at the store while the other bunnies they had were in a cage together. Kind of upset they didn’t tell us he was sick, but oh well, hes part of the family already. Were working on setting up an appointment with the vet

            Thank you for the reply! I will be awaiting the actual reply 


          • Paradigm
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              Why did Bombur and Blue fight?

              There are two (likely) reasons why Bombur and Blue might have started fighting after getting along so well.

              1) As Bombur isn’t neutered, an increase in hormones resulting from puberty will make him more territorial.There do seem to be a minority of bunnies who are able to maintain a pairing while unneutered, but these tend to be bunnies who are too old or too ill to be neutered. 

              The increase in hormones from neutering mean that Bombur to react in instinctively which may result in spontaneous fighting. This is very common, indeed if bonded sibling bunnies aren’t neutered early enough they will almost always begin to fight. 

              2) When bonding a third bun to an existing pair the hierarchies are turned shaken up. In humans, we can see something similar when a third person joins a pair of friends and their dynamic changes. 

              Rabbits have different sorts of hierachies to humans and when something changes (bunny changes smell from illness or new environment i.e trip to vets, or after a house move) they may begin to fight. This change can be resolved, but for a little while it may seem as though your previously bonded buns are in need of re-bonding. Many people caution against bonding trios because in some cases this divorce may be permanent.

              Why did Bombur and Bagder fight?

              As I’ve explained above, hormonal bunnies are very temperamental. Bombur and Blue (presumably) were pre-pubescent or neutered (in the case of Blue) when they met, so as babies they are likely to have been able to bond prior to hormones. Badger, however, was an entirely new rabbit with no existing bond which means he would have provoked territorial behaviour in Bombur. Imagine that someone random had just moved into your house! It’s quite different that if you’d been raised with them from a small child.

              What should I do right now – my bunnies are calm caged near one another?

              The most important thing to keep in mind is that bunnies are still hormonal until 4-6 weeks post-spay. To bond before this is like playing with fire – it might be okay, or you might wind up burnt.

              If your bunnies remain settled while caged beside each other, keeping them near one another is a good idea. It’s important to keep in mind that bunnies can and will bite through bars – I had quite some trouble when Charlie latched onto Albus’s nose through Albus’s cage bars while Charlie was freeroaming. Make sure that there is a barrier between the cages and the free-roam space and a couple of inches between each cage.

              Lots of bonding advice suggests that you should allow minor scuffles when bonding. DO NOT do this when re-bonding Bombur and Blue, if you are allowing them to socialise before neutering and and the post-neuter cool off period. If Bombur mounts or shows other hormonal behaviour it will be influenced by his hormones and is likely to end badly. 

              It would be best not to socialise Bombur or Blue until all three rabbits (or at the very least Bombur and Blue) are neutered as it may result in fighting and rabbits can hold grudges.

              If you’re planning to have them live in your living room post-bonding, it’s a good idea to alternate free-time between the buns so that it’s scent has smells from all three buns.

              Once Badger is healed, it may also be worthwhile rotating the buns around each cage every day or two. 

              This may result in anger from the caged bunnies, but it’s important to keep in mind that if Badger has been caged for weeks he might be quite grumpy when bonding comes about. 

              If at all possible, I would try to arrange their cages so all bunnies can see and smell each other. This might be easier if their cages are rectangle, but (space permitting) it should be possible for all three buns to have a bit of cross over with each other.

              What should I do right now – my bunnies are showing aggression in or out of their cages?

              At this point, you have a few choices.

              You can ignore the behaviour and wait for them to settle. 

              You can separate one or more of the bunnies into different rooms, or if you’re having real problems of trust/anger/stress between Badger and another bun you can move badger to a separate room or send him to live with your mum until he has been neutered.

              I say this not to be mean, but because some people have found that the only way to ‘re-set’ after a big fight or series of big fights is to put one of the involved buns out of smelling distance of the other bun. When separated for a number of weeks, the buns may forget each other and great one another as new buns.

              What should I do about bonding in the future?

              Once everyone is neutered and hormones settled, move them to a neutral setting. Ideally this neutral setting will be small, such as a box with high sides. Whether you try two-by-two or all three, or a combination of both is up to you. It is likely that if you do it two-by-two, they will still need to settle a hierachy and will act differently as a trio than in pairs. 

              My first tip is: wear thick gloves, such as ones for gardening or oven gloves.

              Nevertheless, you may have a bun like my George who acts as a peacemaker. I did a bit of both at first and then moved onto trio only as quickly as possible. Mostly I focused on my two most difficult when in pairs so poor George didn’t have to deal with it.

              I did lots of head stroking together at this point. I put them in the shower (shower off), I changed the box in the shower, I put them on the bathroom floor and on the toilet lid. (If your toilet lid is slippy and has slightly curved edges, it proves very useful as they can’t move around enough to fight without falling off and both buns want to be in the middle where it’s safe. I found a few slips off the side and they were much less keen to fight on the toilet! Qualifier because they still fought in other places)

              At this point, minor scuffles are acceptable – it will likely be stressful for you, though. If there’s no flesh or blood on view, you’re probably good to go. Circling never leads to anything good. Push off humping after 30 seconds, or when the humped bun seems unhappy.

              I used lots of stress bonding. Some people shake boxes, put them on top of a washer/dryer, walk around with the buns in a travel cage or go on a car ride – always have a person who is not the driver to deal with the rabbits. The toilet lid is an example of this.

              Charlie (the instigator) is terrified of the hoover, initially I ran it for a while so that there was a period where he was cowering (this is aimed to force the rabbit to look to the other rabbit for comfort – it is best if they can’t see you). Later, every time he began to fight (which was almost as soon as I turned it off intially) I would turn it. As soon as he stopped, I would turn it off. Classical conditioning at it’s finest, lol.

              If you get to a rut, try something new. I’m a fan of long bonding sessions multiple times a day because it forces the buns to learnt that there’s no point fighting because they’re still going to be stuck together and it shows their behaviour over a longer period of time – some buns might get bored of rowing after 40 minutes, some buns might start, other buns will stop/start ignoring each other at this point. Mine varied at different points over the bonding period.

              Other people prefer shorter sessions. I think the best thing you can do is read blogs, watch videos and look through the bonding journals on this website. It will give you an idea of what you would feel comfortable doing and different tools you can use if something isn’t going well.

              Gah, I went off track from where I wanted to be and my wife is demanding attention. Sorry!


            • Paradigm
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                Posted By Mikey on 2/10/2016 2:56 PM

                More so for the boyfriend and i rather than the bunnies it seems. Everyone is acting pretty normal yet. Blue seems to only get upset whenever Badger gets more than a few minutes of attention. However, Badger is even more separated from the other two now as it seems he has snuffles, which explains why he was alone in a cage at the store while the other bunnies they had were in a cage together. Kind of upset they didn’t tell us he was sick, but oh well, hes part of the family already. Were working on setting up an appointment with the vet

                Thank you for the reply! I will be awaiting the actual reply 

                Oh no! Poor Badger. I hope he gets well soon.

                Sucks that they didn’t tell you about him being ill – definitely something to bring up with them.

                Yeah, my wife couldn’t do the bonding at all because she found it so upsetting. I found it incredibly emotionally draining but became more confident as the days went by. Our first bond went really smoothly considering that our buns should not have been bonded that close to their neuter, so we were in for an eye opener when Albus came along!

                Also, my wife says my post sounded really patronising – sorry I have a tendency to expect others to know what I do, so sometimes I overcompensate… and this happens.


              • I love Blue!
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                  I have a male named Blue too…

                  Sorry it’s unrelated, I’d like to add: http://www.rabbit.org/journal/4-4/tough-bonding.html


                • Mikey
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                    Thank you for all of this! We were pretty sure Bombur went after Blue due to hormones. Weve been trying to get him snipped for about a month now. He has abnormal blood levels in his liver, so the vet doesnt feel comfortable putting him under until we can figure out why his blood levels are so out of whack. She will do the surgery if we think its an emergency though, but we would prefer not to go that route in case something goes wrong.

                    First step seems to be getting the bunnies neutered then we will begin some stress bonding. We did a little but of the shower tactic with Bombur and Blue, but it turned out Bombur really liked playing in the tub so it didnt go as expected, hah. But thank you again for all of the information and tactics! We will definitely be trying a lot of them to see what works for each bun. We will be asking Mom later today how she would feel about babysitting for a few weeks just in case. Im sure she will be ok with it, so im not early as worried as i was before posting this.


                  • Mikey
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                      The vet said to watch him for a few days and see if it gets worse. She said some rabbits get sick when brought into a new place due to stress and it could be nothing. If it gets worse we are to set up an appointment and if hes still sick next monday we are to set up an appointment. I havent seen green on him in about 24 hours, so all seems well but we are still keeping a little sick journal on him for the next few days just in case. 

                      I bet it was draining! Bonding Bombur and Blue didnt take too long, but it was a hard process. I remember both me and the boyfriend crying a few times because we thought they would never get along. Now theyre like brothers, and one gets depressed if the other is not around for more than a few hours (part of the reason we want a third. Little update on them, they havent fought since and are back to playing, running, and sharing food as normal! Im very happy the pair are back to their happy little selves.

                      Oh no, dont worry about it! It was a super helpful post. We made a little list of what bonding exercises we want to try whenever everyone is feeling better and in what order should we see successful progression thanks to your post 


                    • Mikey
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                        (Am i replying right? I am not used to this website yet lol)

                        Thats cute you have a Blue too! What kind of bunny is he? And thank you for the link! Ive read it over a few times and noted some of the warning signs. I had no idea tail up could be a sign of aggression 


                      • I love Blue!
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                          Posted By Mikey on 2/11/2016 4:13 PM

                          (Am i replying right? I am not used to this website yet lol)

                          Thats cute you have a Blue too! What kind of bunny is he? And thank you for the link! Ive read it over a few times and noted some of the warning signs. I had no idea tail up could be a sign of aggression 

                          You are welcome, yes you are replying. Blue da perpetrator-bunny is a New Zealand Blue with a few silvery patches from shedding.


                        • Mikey
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                            Thank you 

                            Your Blue sounds adorable!


                          • Mikey
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                              Little bunny update. Bombur and Blue are back to normal 100percent and Badger is no longer sick. We are waiting on bonding the three for a few weeks yet, and Badger will soon be going to grandma’s house to be babysat. Our apartment is giving us some issued and are trying to kick us out based on the bunnies, even though Bombur and Blue are on the lease (we got notice the day we went to add Badger to the lease, so he will be “rehomed” until we get this figured out). But im not too worried about bonding them any more, when the time comes. When Bombur and Blue are free roaming, they will go up to Badger’s cage to sniff it. We havent seen any nipping the past two days, only licking and sniffing through the bars. On rare occasion, Bombur will kick Badger’s cage then run away and thump. I think bonding those two will still be the trickiest

                              But anyway! Thats a little update on whats going on. Oh, and they got a huge new cage from C&C Cages when the time comes to add them all to it


                            • Mikey
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                                Big update! Badger just has allergies and weve been noted that our netherland dwarf, Bombur, might not ever be snipped due to his reoccurring abnormal blood work. So weve started the bonding process. I think its gone pretty fast compared to most trio stories ive read. We started with 2 buns per day in a basket in the bathroom. Blue felt replaced by Badger and would nip and lunge at him any time Badger had any sort off attention so we decided to try just Bombur and Badger for the first few days, meanwhile Blue would get a lot of attention after the other twos bonding session. My boyfriend ended up having a panic attack during bonding because Badger looked nervous, and hes the baby of our three. Bonding them after that was my job, since i could easily detach myself when the time came

                                After the first weekish, Badger started acting a little more like himself around Bombur. I had them in the tub together and aside from minor humping now and then, they were fine together. I felt they were ready to free roam the living room together. I let Bombur out first and he ran to the closet, his favorite place to hide. And then i let Badger out, and Bombur came running up to him. They sniffed one another. Bombur thumped and ran. Then they would sniff again. I pet them both face to face for a few minutes, then set out some hay and a bowl of water. Again, some humping from Bombur but Badger didnt seem to care. They would sniff, groom, and share food together. I figure, theyre at a good stage; i should start adding in Blue to the bonding sessions

                                Adding Blue was difficult for the first 3 or 4 days. All three were placed in the basket again. He would lunge, hump, and nip both bunnies every time they had any sort off attention. At this point, i would put all three buns in the basket about 3 or 4 times a day, but only for a few minutes each session with several hour breaks inbetween. I started giving Blue even more attention than the other two, unless one looked nervous or stressed. After those few days, Blue started ignoring the other two, so we moved to the bath tub. Once again, Blue started his pouty nipping and lunging, so i decided we would continue back to several super short sessions a day. They had a few breaks in between where we wouldnt do any bonding and the buns would take turns free roaming the living room

                                And about two days ago, i felt there was this weird break through with Blue. Badger was having a bad allergy day so i was babying him with cuddles and pets while the other two were free roaming in the same room as me and Badger, and Blue was watching me. I was snuggling Badger for a little over a half hour, and Blue watched most of the time. When he would pout, i would extend one of my arms and he would nuzzle my hand and i would pet him. He seemed to understand that he was still my baby, just like Badger was my baby (Bombur prefers my boyfriend unless i have treats, but he is my baby too)

                                The day after (yesterday), Blue and Bombur were free roaming again. Bombur doesnt like when Badger doesnt free roam with them, so he often bites Badgers cage. This day, every time he did that, Blue would push him over. Not angrily or rough, just nudge him and put him off balance so he couldnt bite the cage. I checked Badger to see how his allergies were doing, and he seemed to be having a good allergy day. So i started them all in the tub. Heres where i almost bursted into tears: Blue cuddled with Badger! Bombur would try to hump Badger and if Badger would test up, Blue would nudge Bombur off. He was protecting Badger! I felt comfortable enough to get their hay dish and water dish while leaving them alone. There were no fights or anything while i was gone! They ate their hay and drank their water for a good 20 minutes before i asked my boyfriend if i could try something. He said i could, and helped me block off the underside of the couch. I grabbed Blue and set him in the living room. I grabbed Bombur and Badger together and set them in the living room too. There was no chasing. No lunging. No biting. No nipping. Not even any humping! My boyfriend watched them as i went and got their hay and water from the bath tub. They gathered and all ate together! Im so proud of my babies for having their first hour long bonding session, and their first session with no nipping or lunging!

                                Ill be continueing the tub to living room routine until i feel a little more comfortable. But im so proud of them! My Bluey baby finally learned he wasnt replaced by Badger! The next step after theyre fully bonded in the living room will be to get Badger into the big cage with Blue and Bombur. Im sure that will take a little more time since its technically Bombur and Blue territory, but so was the living room at one point. I dont plan to start that until baby Badger is neutered though, but hes still too young, so ill be sticking with living room play time and bonding for a few months yet. Im just so happy and proud of my boys that i had to brag about them and update this post! XD

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