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Forum DIET & CARE Over cecal production.

  • This topic has 29sd replies, 7 voices, and was last updated 8 years ago by Mel94.
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    • Mel94
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        Hi guys,

         

        Over the last week or two, I’ve noticed Thumper has been doing some random long cecals here and there. I can’t figure out why though because the last time he did them like this was while he was eating muesli before being switched onto pellets. 

        His diet is as follows:

        • Small piece of carrot in the morning
        • 1/4 cup of Selective Science pellets
        • Two leaves of ‘British Greens’ cabbage and two green beans in the afternoon/evening. (Not great veggies, I know, but that’s all he’ll eat and I’ve tried him on everything else on the HRS list.)
        • Unlimited Meadow hay.
        • Maximum of 4 pieces of Apple Snacks by Burgess Excel for treats every few days. (Hasn’t had them the last few days and he’s still done long cecals.)

        He’s been on this diet for a few months now after coming off the muesli and up until recently, everything’s been fine. He doesn’t eat them, they just sit there and unless I remove them from his cage for him, they just get trodden on or sat on.

        Does anyone have any ideas about why this might be happening and should I be worried?

         Thanks for any help.


      • ergodic
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          How much does he weigh? Has anything else changed?
          I would probably get rid f the carrot as well and see how he does.
          MAybe reduce the pellets or the veggies and try him hay only.

          Watch him carefully my rabbit I thought was having an overproduction of cecals
          It turned out he had and ulcer and bled to the point where he was too weak to reach around.

          Does he have problems reach and getting to the cecals. Could it be arthritis?
          You might check with your vet if nothing else has changed.


        • Bam
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            You can try a probiotic to get his tummy back in order. And try cutting out the carrots, I’ve a rabbit who can’t eat carrots or he gets excess cecals. Carrots have a lot of sugar, but we often don’t think about them as being sugary since they’re vegs.

            You have perhaps read this, I’m linking to it anyway since it’s a good article on a very common problem. http://rabbit.org/intermittent-soft-cecotropes-in-rabbits/


          • StachesMommy
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              I was actually wondering about this too… I have a 9 week old holland and she is on alfalfa based pellets, unlimited timothy/orchard grass hay, and some alfalfa hay. I know she eats some of her cecals. I actually see her eating it often but then I find some in her litter box as well that is uneaten. I wasn’t sure what to do so I picked it up and placed it in front of her thinking maybe it fell through the grates and she couldn’t get them but she went on doing her own thing. She is playing fine, happy, eating a lot… Should I be worried?


            • LBJ10
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                Mel – If cutting out the sugary stuff doesn’t help, then I would explore “mobility” issues. As ergodic said, it could be arthritis or something else that prevents him from reaching back there.

                StachesMommy – It’s normal for young bunnies on a rich diet to have extra cecals. As long as she isn’t sitting in them and getting them stuck to her butt, then it isn’t anything to worry about. She’ll eat what she wants and ignore the rest. Cecal production should become “normal” once she has been transitioned to an adult diet.


              • StachesMommy
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                  *whew* That is good news! Thank you LBJ and Mel, I hope everything is okay with your little love.


                • Mel94
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                    Hi everyone, thank you for the replies.

                    Since starting this thread, we’ve adjusted Thumper’s diet by holding back on his greens and reduce the size of his morning carrot to a tiny amount, in order to encourage him to eat more of his hay instead. The cecals stopped during then, until I decided to give him a small pinch of his dandelion feast because he was fed up with his food and I thought he’d be ok on a natural treat rather than a sugared treat, but he did big cecals again. They were his favourite treat until we discovered his Apple Snacks and he has never had a problem with them before now. So we went back again to hay and pellets for a few days and once again, everything was fine, so we tried giving him a small green bean to see how that would effect him and guess what? More cecals. This is so confusing, his stomach seems to be suddenly all over the place with foods that were completely fine before.

                    I still see him reach down to his bum and he twists around to his back while cleaning, so I don’t think it’s a mobility issue. I’m just dreading what it could be.

                    He was 4.3lbs when we last weighed him (I’ll try and do it again soon.) We think he’s a Nethie x Mini Rex.

                    He’s still very social, he comes up to you in his cage to say hello and chin/lick hour fingers but I’ve noticed he’s not as active when he’s out on the floor. He’ll just sit under the small table he likes in the corner instead of hopping around or exploring and getting into mischief.


                  • vanessa
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                      Perhaps the microbiome in his belly has changed? More hay and a limited bland diet would settle that down. It’s good that you can see which foods are triggering him at the moment, Perhaps after a more limited diet, his belly will act better? I have a bunny with a sensitive belly. So I cut all carrots and fruit for my bunnies, because he can smell them from a mile away, and I don’t want to teast him. Now that my bunny has been in a pellet/hey diet, he can tolerate greens again, and I’ve tested a few small pieces of fruit, which he does respond “ok” ti now. But he responded poorly before – icky cecals. So his pellet/hay diet definitely helped restore the biome balance in his belly, but I still won’t give hin carrots or fruit. I dot; want to get his belly started up again. He loves bell pepper and cabbage, so those are his treat foods.


                    • vanessa
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                        That was a good article to read Bam.


                      • LBJ10
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                          Mel – How old is Thumper? And when were these changes originally made? Some bunnies will seem fine when they are young, but then develop sensitivity issues as they get older.


                        • Mel94
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                            Hi guys,

                            I thought I had found the cause of the unexplained cecals. My mum gets up earlier in the mornings than I do and Thumper literally won’t settle until he gets a piece of carrot. She’d been telling me all this time he’s only been having a small amount, but one morning, I ended up being up at the same time as her and I practically leaped out of my seat when I saw the size of the carrot she was going to give him. It was about the same size as the distance between your thumb and your forefinger! I figured, well no wonder his stomach is bad! So now I’ve been cutting up and peeling an inch size of carrot and putting it in the fridge ready for her to give him before I go to bed every night to give him in the mornings so I know exactly how much he’s getting. And guess what? Still cecals. It’s been about a week since I’ve reduced his carrot size now, too.

                            He’s coming up to 6 years old in March, which I know is when he becomes classed as a ‘senior bun’ and he’ll have an increased risk of all sorts of stuff as he gets older. He’s still on just 1/4 of a cup of pellets and hay. I’ve even tried giving him a very small amount of a new treat that he had for Christmas (I ordered a Bunny Box delivery before his cecals started happening.) Ribwort root plantain leaves, it says on the packet it strengthens and supports the digestive system so I thought it sounded like something he could do with right now, but no change.


                          • LBJ10
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                              And you’re sure he isn’t becoming a little arthritic? I think it was brought up earlier in this thread. Now that I know he is 6, I think it could be a possibility. That’s about when it starts with some bunnies.


                            • Mel94
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                                Hi LBJ – I personally don’t think Thumper has mobility issues as I still see him reach down to his bum and start chewing afterwards, as if he’s eating a cecal and he’s still able to twist around to his back during cleaning, but of course he hasn’t been checked over by a vet so far, so maybe it could still be a possibility.

                                We’ve decided that we’re going to take Thumper to a rabbit savvy vet next week if the cecals continue. We’re with the PDSA due to my mum’s financial claimants and in the past, they’ve came across to me like they don’t really specialize in bunny care. We had a Stasis scare quite a while ago and it was during a seasonal moult, and although I brush him regularly, I mentioned it to them in case he had a blockage from a hairball. Their reply was that “moulting was normal” and they didn’t seem to consider it as a factor in a bunny who wasn’t eating and was lethargic. Also, they said he seemed fine compared to what they see on a daily basis, so I’m worried if I take Thumper there with his cecal issues now, because he seems ok other than the unexplained cecals, that they’ll just pass it off instead of looking into it properly.

                                He gave me a scare last night, when I went to pick him up from his cage, he squirmed out of my hands as soon as I had my hands around his chest/belly area and had began lifting him. I had been talking to him and stroked him beforehand to prepare him for being lifted like I always do and he was calm up until that point. I was worried that his belly was tender/sore. Luckily I hadn’t lifted him far from the floor of his cage, so he just safely leaped out of my hands. When I got him out on the floor to monitor how his behaviour would be, he seemed playful enough, so it eased my mind.


                              • Mel94
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                                  I just wanted to demonstrate the size of the peeled carrot I’ve been cutting up for my mum to give him when she gets up in the mornings. It’s been like that for almost 2 weeks now, and still today I had to clear out 3/4 small cecals from his cage.

                                   


                                • Bam
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                                    I’d cut the carrot out completely. I had to do that with Bam, and he loved carrots. (He probably still loves carrots but he can’t have any.) He can have a segment of orange (but I didn’t start out with a whole segment), a little piece of kiwi, a slice of apple. So it doesn’t seem to be all about sugar. I think carrot is a bit tough to digest. If I give my dog carrots (she loves carrots), it comes out rather intact in the other end (yeah, gross.). But if I give her boiled carrot, it’s no problem.

                                    Over-cecal-production is due to some sort of change to the microbiota in the gut, and such changes occur as we age. It’s not the same in kids as in adults as in the elderly. This has been studied rather extensively lately in humans and mice. As we age, we can have difficulty absorbing all nutrients because of our changed gut microbiota. We are dependant on these microorganisms not just for our gut health but for our over-all health. .

                                    An upset bunny tummy can take a long time to right itself, I have experienced that with Bam. It took months. He was younger than Thumpers at the time though, so I could feed him a diet consisting mainly of hay. I don’t know if that’s appropriate for a rabbit that’s a bit older.

                                    Senior rabbit pellets could be sth to try, if there are good brands available. A probiotic won’t hurt according to Medirabbit – but it might not have any effect at all, they also say that.


                                  • vanessa
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                                      I can’t give Lancelot ANY carrots or fruit without his cecotroughs becomming squishy. Even a tiny amount – if yoru bunny is sensitive – can cause problems.


                                    • LBJ10
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                                        I agree. Cut out the carrot completely, see what happens.


                                      • EmbersMummy
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                                          Cut the carrot out completely, my buns never have carrot they live on a small amount of pellets sometimes none and unlimited supply of hay and a few veggies! If the problem persists there’s always a syringe medicine called fibre plex that helps settle the tummy and gut functions back to normal give this a go with advise from a vet but definitely remove the carrot!


                                        • Mel94
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                                            Hi guys, thanks for the replies about the carrot, I’ll take it into consideration.

                                            We took Thumper to a rabbit-savvy vet on Monday, on the basic tests (teeth, temperature, listening to stomach, checking bum, etc) she said everything was normal and she decided to prescribe him a 3 day course of Emeprid, which he’s just finished last night. Although she said his stomach sounded to be in order, she said the Emeprid was just to help his digestive system. He’s also been given Pro-Fibre supplements because he’s very fussy with his veggies. He’d been doing really well this week, cecals Monday which I assumed were just from his meds helping his digestive system along and he hadn’t done anymore all week until last night. I was preparing the syringe and was just about to pick him up from his cage when I saw two messy cecals in the corner of his cage. Now I’m confused because everything seemed to have been going well this week, he’s been eating his supplements straight away when we put them in his bowl (which is a relief, considering how fussy he is.) I was hoping we wouldn’t have to syringe feed him again anytime soon, he was fine with licking up the medication but he was scared of the syringe and kept flinching when the meds were squirted into his mouth and we were taking it gentle and slow.


                                          • Bam
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                                              I’m sorry he still isn’t quite right, but these things can take a bit of time. The emeprid is meant to help with his gastro-intestinal motility. When you give that to a bun, you often get a splotch or pile of unformed stools as a result. It’s the tummy emptying itself, and that’s what the med is for.

                                              The pro-fibre probably needs more than just days to take full effect. It’s about re-establishing a healthy gut-flora, and that can take some time, often several weeks or even months. Next step could be to have a bloodtest done to check his liver- and kidney-function, if this doesn’t right itself. But I do think you need to be patient. You can ask your vet how long she thinks you should give it.

                                              Buns can get intestinal parasites, even if it’s pretty rare in indoors buns, they do eat vegs from the outdoors (obviously).


                                            • Mel94
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                                                Hi bam, thanks for your reply.

                                                Yeah, I think you’re right about needing to be patient, it’s just that the vet said if the cecals continue then to take him back next week to explore other possible causes and now I’m worrying about what they might be, his cecals have been so bad today, poor little guy. He’s my first bunny and the first animal I’ve ever felt properly bonded to, I couldn’t bare it if anything happened to him. I just hope so much that whatever it is that’s causing this isn’t serious and can be easily treatable.


                                              • Bam
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                                                  (((((Thumpers)))))

                                                  I’m keeping my fingers crossed for him!
                                                  Have you had his molars checked? If there are molar spurs (can develop as a bunny ages), he might not be able to chew his food properly, resulting in stomach trouble. It’s common in rabbits. I have a bunny who gets molar spurs and has to have them burred.


                                                • Mel94
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                                                    Hi guys.

                                                    Thank you for the support Bam, it means a lot. Yeah, his teeth have been checked on his first visit and again yesterday, everything seems fine there apparently.

                                                    His cecals haven’t improved since being on his fibre supplements and his dose of Emeprid, so we’ve just had a 2 week waiting period to see how things go (vets advise before they go further.) We took him back yesterday and the vet told us that she’s spoken to her colleague and they can’t figure out what could be the problem. They’ve both felt his abdomen and they said everything was normal (although we had a scare because the vet we see thought she’d found a mass, but when her colleague checked, he said she was just feelings his kidneys that are apparently very movable in rabbits – I swear my heart stopped when she said she felt a mass. ) They can’t work it out because he’s still very bright, active and hungry still – which is a good thing, of course, but they said they see bunnies with parasites, etc who usually worsen over the time period Thumper’s had his cecal problem. They think whatever is wrong with him may be an uncommon issue. They’re trying him on an anti-inflammatory this week to see how it affects him, just in case he’s having any pains that may be stopping him from eating his cecals and we’re to take a sample in to be tested on Monday to see what results they can get there. They said if the problem still persists and they can’t get any results from his sample test then they’ll start looking into ultrasounds and blood work.

                                                    Also, he’s lost some weight. He’s now 3.3lbs whereas he was 4.3lbs last year when I switched him from muesli. They don’t seem too overly concerned at this weight loss, but they said it’s important that he doesn’t lose any more.


                                                  • Mel94
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                                                      Videos of Thumper taking his anti-inflammatory medication. Just thought I’d share because of how adorable he is. 

                                                      So far, no improvement in his cecals though.

                                                      Video 1.

                                                      Video 2. 

                                                      <3


                                                    • LBJ10
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                                                        You never know. It could be a pain issue. I think trying an NSAID is worth a shot.


                                                      • Bam
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                                                          Thumpers truly is adorable! Get better soon (((((Thumpers)))))


                                                        • Mel94
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                                                            He’s been on Loxicom for the last week there’s still cecals. One night after I’d administered his dosage and he’d gone back to his cage, I saw him reach down and definitely eat a cecal from his bum (a bit dropped from his mouth) then 10 minutes later, there were loads of cecals around his cage that he ignored. So he was definitely able to reach them to eat them, but we still don’t have an answer for why the cecals are happening.

                                                            The vet rang us with his stool sample test results today, they’re all clear so the next diagnostic step is to do blood work and an ultrasound, except she’s worried about the stress it would inflict on him and him possibly going into GI Stasis from it. At the minute, the cecals and the weight loss are the only symptoms (and he’s always hungry), he still seems very bright and alert, so they’re weighing up the risks of these tests against the necessity. She’s going to talk to her superior tomorrow to discuss the options and then get back to us. I really don’t know what to do for the best, I just want him to be healthy and I hate the thought of him secretly suffering with his problem at the minute and needing our help, but I don’t want to inflict any suffering onto him either.


                                                          • Mel94
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                                                              Hi guys, just an update on Thumper.

                                                              The vet decided that because Thumper isn’t showing any danger signs, he’ll be ok to go back every month for a check up and weight monitoring, rather than put him through the stress of having blood work and an ultrasound done. We took him on Tuesday and he gained 200grams! Which is great after he’d previously lost weight. The stool test showed an odd lack of normal bacteria in his gut, which is confusing to the vet since he hasn’t been on antibiotics or anything to explain why. He’s been changed from Pro Fibre to Fibreplex to see if that helps any. So far, no change in cecals.

                                                              He also now has a baby sister called Angel, she’s 13 weeks old. They get on well so far (they interact while Angel is in her play pen and Thumper is on the floor.) The pet shop gave us adult food, is this ok or should we switch to Alfalfa?


                                                            • Bam
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                                                                Hi Thumpers and Angels mommy
                                                                I think Angel can eat the adult pellets if you add alfalfa hay. If she’s on unlimited pellets (bowl refilled when all has been eaten) I think her body will tell her how much pellets she needs to eat. Adult pellets are less rich in protein than baby pellets so she’ll need to eat more of the adult food.
                                                                I’m glad to hear Thumpers have gained weight. And Angel is precious


                                                              • Mel94
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                                                                  Thank you!

                                                                   Angel had her first check up at the vets last week (and flew out of the vet’s arms and straight onto the floor!) Luckily she wasn’t injured at all. She had her first vaccination and she already weighs 1.95lbs at 3 months old. Is it possible that she’s close to being fully grown already? I know the Nethie adult average weight is around 2lbs. She has her spay in 3 months time too. 

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                                                              Forum DIET & CARE Over cecal production.