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Forum BONDING unbonded trio….Help!

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    • Kooky
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        My three rabbits have been bonded for almost a year now. The girls have been together since they were born and have never really been separated for anything, they even stayed together when spayed because they were so close and there was no fighting then. Archie appeared 2 months later (unexpected b day present lol) and his bonding to the girls went pretty well. I wasn’t sure about bonding at the time but set a crate up in the girls room and put him in there. At first the girls were quite aggressive through the bars but i didnt get him neutered hoping he would stay horny enough to not want to fight them. It worked lol, about a week or so later the girls were snuggling by the cage and i had him neutered and a few weeks after that they have all been together fine since. Until this last week. I moved to a new flat about a month ago and this last week rolo who has always been the submissive female started humping biscuit a lot. Then it turned into scraps and I thought new flat, new territory so maybe they were just sorting out their heirachy so i stopped it when it escalated and hoped they would figure it out. 

        Well, now archie has started fighting with them but he will attack whatever bun is closest to him at the time and last night all three of them got into a flurry battle of fluff and limbs and they all had minor injuries after . So i have set a cage up in the room and seperated the girls. Rolo always initiates a fight, biscuit will then retaliate and then archie will then attack whoever he can catch first. So rolo and biscuit are taking it in turns in the cage. I don’t know where to go from here because both females are refusing to groom each other and their trust seems to have wavered, Archie is the only one who seems unaffected by it all and goes about his life as usual. i have no idea what to do help!. I feel like they haven’t fully unbonded as they will lie near other but not next to and will eat and nibble hay fine but when they circling begins all hell breaks loose!


      • Chelle
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          I am no expert by far but it does sounds to me like the two females may have not truly been bonded especially if they were litter mates. Their personalities can change as they grow up. The other issue I can see is that Archie was not fixed so he did have hormones running through him and I am sure the girls smelled that. They could have been vying for his attentions and now are mad at one another because they each want to pair bond with him. Now you throw a move into the mix and it seems to me that they don’t know which bun is the alpha (very important as the alpha helps to keep the warren safe) or more to the point if they even want to be together…. To me I would start at square one….Are they all fixed? Archie needs about 4 weeks to get all of the hormones out of his system. I would try putting the buns in a box and taking a car ride….this usually stresses them to the point where they have to huddle with one another for safety thus creating a base of trust. After a car ride I would put the two sisters together for a play session. No litter boxes as they may want to mark. Try a small squared off space like a hall with a baby gate up. At the first sign of circling separate them. Can you pin point what sets them off? Them being near each other and going about their business is a good sign… it means “I trust you enough to let my guard down to…. eat, rest, groom etc. pay attention to what sets the girls off- is it Archie coming in the room? Is it a sound or a vibration…. if they don’t trust each other they will do into defensive mode and even if the other bun is not causing the fear factor they are both just reacting to their surroundings and taking it out on each other! I do know that every bonding is unique so what works for some may not work for others- for example I could not put my buns in the bathtub for a date…. my girl would immediately start circling and it almost got ugly….. but put them in the fenced off hall and it was much different! Hope this helps and good luck I think with a little time and patience they should come around……
          PS you might want to wipe down the new flat with vinegar…. it will neutralize any odors that could be triggering territorial behavior.. XX


        • Kooky
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            Archie was fixed almost a year ago and the girls having been living with him fixed for almost a year fine with no problems. Fighting has only begun this past week or so , so no previous unfixed hormones were likely involved. It is most likely the new area i think that’s setting them off, unfortunately they now just fight as soon as they see each other so atm they take turns being in a cage (in the same room) for their safety. The problem is, both of them seem to be bonded fine to Archie, as when the other female is locked up, Archie will snuggle with the other one just fine. And both girls seem much happier when they are alone with him. Maybe it was a fighting for his attention thing, now i don’t know. But its really heartbreaking as they have been a snuggly little trio until rolo and biscuit started fighting :/ It began with Rolo challenging Biscuit (Who was the boss) by humping her all the time, now its just full on fights the second they know there are no bars in the way. I really dont want to have to seperate them fully as they are both technically bonded to archie, he lies by the cage a lot because he wants to snuggle both girls. :/


          • Kooky
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              i will try putting them in the bathtub tonight to see if that helps, but should i have Archie in the tub as well? or leave him to his own thing. Would that make it worse or better? His bond with the girls seems fine its just the girls bond that has completely broken down? Maybe i should alternate who’s in the cage and who gets play time for the time being until Biscuit is less scared and traumatized by the whole thing. I think she is fighting more out of fear than anything else at the moment as Rolo is always the one looking for the fight.


            • Paradigm
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                Since you’re alternating the cages, they won’t forget each other’s scent in the time they’re separated.

                I would initially try the girls alone as it sounds like Archie gets involved in the fights when Biscuit and Rolo start them.

                Are they afraid of the hoover? You could try stress bonding them together.

                I’ve tried smooshing with my trio and although initially it only kept them calm when they were together (well, George is a bit like Archie – she likes them both) between the smooshing and sessions with the hoover they’ve made progress. I’ve also tried stroking one (or two) while the second/third roams to help the bunny relax while the other was moving around.

                Once I got them to a point where they weren’t attempting full on fights through bars (though still fur pulling) I put them on top of the toilet seat (slippy and easy to fall off if they don’t huddle) and introduced smeared treats on their heads. Albus was fooled by it and groomed Charlie, but Charlie didn’t go for it. They’re now getting along better.

                They hadn’t had lots of bad past experiences, however. It sounds like it could be a slow process.


              • Kooky
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                  Session 1: So this bonding session did not go well, the second i put them in the bath together it was an all out scrap, but i persisted for maybe 5-10 minutes hoping that the two girls (I didn’t include Archie like Suggested) would get tired and maybe try to share the same space. No such luck, after biscuit received a mean looking bite mark on her ear (it drew a bit of blood) i decided to call it quits for the night. Rolo kept trying to run around the block i was using to separate them in an attempt to get at biscuit. I know ending on a bad note doesn’t help the bonding process but it was pretty much 10 minutes of non stop fighting and both were getting really stressed out (and injured!). I also stressed them in a carrier beforehand in which they both hunkered down and didn’t show any signs of aggression, but as soon as i put them in the tub they didn’t stop fighting . So Archie is now cuddling Biscuit and feeding her kisses while Rolo is in the cage. Ill have to swap them over and when i do i’ll give Rolo a more though check for injuries.


                • Chelle
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                    I am so sorry it seems to be going so poorly with the girls. Seriously try cleaning down the house with vinegar though…. if any scents are setting off their behavior you may not be able to tell but they can! Who knows another house bun may have lived there??? If I find any other helpful suggestions I will pass them on.. Also rabbits have a jealous streak so maybe just concentrate on the girls and leave Archie completely out of it…. like don’t let one lady spend time with him while the other is caged and onlooking….I had that experience with my two! They had gotten jealous of the other when he/she was out romping around!


                  • Kooky
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                      Hey, So i needed to hoover before work this morning and though it would be a good chance to try again with the girls. 

                      Session 2: I put them both in the carrier again as they fought the least in here and im certainly not rushing back to the tub after last time. At first there was A LOT of humping from rolo like a lot so i gave it a few seconds and started hoovering and shook the carrier up a bit to get her to stop. When she tried again the circling started and a scrap broke up, but it was stopped by some more vigorous shaking and hoovering around the carrier. Eventually they both just sat there looking at me with anger for locking them up but no more humping or scraps occurred for the 5 or so minutes it took to hoover. I didn’t want to push how long they were gonna be in there after the damage they have done to each other previously. So once they had settled down i let them out in their areas of the room and they went on their way. So session 2 was short but MUCH better than yesterday with the tub. I think im gonna have to stick to using the carrier for a while as any more space causes constant fighting atm. Neither girls want to back down from being in charge and this is what seems to be causing the fighting. But i will do a vinegar wash down of the house tonight as suggested after work just to be sure. So ended on a good note this morning. Finally! 

                      Edit: Came home to find Biscuit grooming Archie relentlessly, i have never seen her groom any other bun before, so i feel like her having alone time has really brought her out of her shell and she might be bonding much more closely with Archie. Not sure if its a good or bad thing, but they have been cuddling together for the last hour now. Rolo never seems to do this as much any more and tried to hump him most of the time when she gets play time. So it seems like relationships all around are changing . Archie and biscuit just flopped together as i was typing this and it makes me happy for them but worried that they will bond and become a pair, then rolo will have to be on her own 


                    • Kooky
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                        I’m kind of stuck on where to go from here. Biscuit and Archie both seem much happier as a bonded pair now. Archie is still friends with Rolo but biscuit is definitely his favorite.

                        Session 3: The carrier works and they both sit in there, there is no grooming per say but they don’t fight and only slight humping goes on and stops when i shake it. problem is, if i increase the size to anything marginally bigger than the carrier. They start fighting. Should i just take the plunge and stick it out with the fighting? i have no idea where to go from here, their relationship seems to have hit a stalemate. They will lie near each other on opposite sides of the cage, but without the cage they fight. IM really stuck. I did the vinegar spray around the house, but now Rolo just pees and poops everywhere. Archie and Biscuit are almost spotless with the litter tray, but Rolo pees on my bed, in their hide, on their rugs etc. Its not an infection because she has been checked for that, she just tries to mark everything. 


                      • Kooky
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                          Session 4: So the Bunny Box arrived today and i thought it would be a good distraction to try the girls again. I put rolo on the floor and sat with them to stop anything before it would escalate. Nothing really happened. The girls stayed away from each other with Archie eating all the food. It ended with a nip from rolo on biscuits bum but i stopped it before it got any worse. Then i gave rolo a quick pat and popped her back in the cage. Again only a short period but there was no fighting so im glad. 

                          A picture of Archie and Biscuit enjoying the box. They follow each other about a lot nowadays so ofc they are together. Shows how big Archie looks in comparison . That’s without him sitting up properly either.

                          A picture of all 3. Rolo’s head is a bit blurred because she moved as i took the picture. As you can see she is the smallest but is the one causing most of the problems. this was when they got on and was a few minutes before She nipped Biscuit on the bum. But overall i’ll class it as a good bonding exercise that it didn’t turn into an all out fight. hopefully it means whatever was aggravating them is starting to wear off . You cant see Biscuit damaged ear here but you can see a small white tuft on Rolo’s Butt where she lost some fur  You can also see what i typed about Rolo’s territorial marking. outside the cage its pretty much spotless for poop (Biscuit and Archie were out all day), but Rolo has spent all day in the cage and its covered 


                        • Kooky
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                            So, now i’m stuck. Archie has begun to make it clear that Biscuit is his more preferred female companion, and Rolo is just beginning to stick out. She isn’t getting on with Biscuit and she isn’t getting on that well with Archie. I’m torn over moving her completely away from the other two or not. I feel like the two would be happier but how does a bunny fair on their own? She will get pats and attention from ppl but she wont have a buddy for the majority of the time. Would it be better to buy another rabbits eventually for her to have a friend or not? I’m so torn right now i don’t want to separate her but i feel like they need to forget each other and start from scratch.

                            And if i do completely separate her, surely if i pat her and then pat my other two it will cause fighting between them? i might just stick to what i have atm and just hope they will become friends again.


                          • Kooky
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                              I don’t get it. They will all lie next to each other (or sit) like this. But when Rolo is out of the cage she attacks Biscuit. Its like they want to be together but don’t want to at the same time xD.

                              Also that is biscuits ear now, after about a week of healing the big reason why i separated them in the first place 


                            • Kooky
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                                Session 4: Such good news! I tried bonding all 3 in the bathtub again hoping maybe Archie could diffuse any fighting between the two. It was fine, i attempted squishing the girls together and patting them but they all seemed too focused on getting out (and not fighting this time! ) so i took the plunge and put them on the bathroom floor, Archie ran out the room before i could close the door but i was more focused on the girls so i didn’t mind too much. Thankfully the girls didn’t leave the mat as they didn’t like the tiled floor so the area they were in seemed quite small. NO FIGHTING! im so happy i cant even explain how happy i am. There was a lot of humping from Rolo but Biscuit tolerated it ok and showed no signs of getting angry, although that could be because she was stressed from being in the bathroom. I know they are trying to establish a hierarchy so i allowed the humping to continue for about 5 sec or so then i nudged her off. The rest of the time was spent between them sitting there or Rolo humping Biscuit and there was no nipping or fighting at all! im so happy this is the first step in the right direction for a while now! i gave them both a treat before putting them back as well so hopefully it was a good memory for them. I’ll stick with the bathroom floor for now as it seems to be working, until they both lie down next to each other/groom before i try in another space/ with more room. yees!


                              • Kooky
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                                  Session 5: This session went similar to the previous one except i did a lot of forced snuggles with all 3. Which went well they all kinda snuggled up pretty well. Rolo humped Biscuit a bit and Biscuit did spin round and give her a nip at one point but it didn’t escalate further as i stopped it before anything would happen. Both girls groomed Archie but not each other. Archie did give Rolo a very small nip at one point because she stopped grooming him but it was so minor i took no notice. Although Rolo was seeming to groom Biscuit but it appeared more like she was nibbling her face than grooming? Biscuit didn’t seem bothered but i wasn’t quite sure what she was doing? any ideas? overall it was another successful session and i gave them all a treat after and put them back in their respective areas. Im pretty sure Archie has become the one in charge and neither of the girls seem to challenge him and they both groom him willingly quite a lot. He has also become a little bit food aggressive round Rolo so i have to feed them in separate bowls for the time being but its just a bit of lunging, nothing too serious, but she stays out of his way. Surprisingly he is a lot less aggressive with food around Biscuit. If anyone has any ideas or suggestions it would be very appreciated thanks x


                                • Kooky
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                                    Session 6: The same all round. Some forced snuggles and the such. Biscuit gets a lost more stressed than the other two, but she takes comfort in being able to snuggle with Archie. both continued to groom Archie and refused to groom each other. More humping from Rolo but i didn’t let it continue as long because Biscuit was getting nippy when Rolo would hump for too long. I’ll keep with this process for another week or so and introduce a litter tray and gradually increase the sessions if all goes well.

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                                Forum BONDING unbonded trio….Help!