Bloat – help

[Paradigm]

Fred and George turned out to be girls! Fred is not pregnant – she’s bloated and the vet also thinks George is bloated. He thinks we were wrong to allow them unlimited pellet access (even though only Fred was particularly interested in this).

The vet said to feed them only hay until they recover but did not offer any painkillers or subcutaneous fluids and to return in a few days if they haven’t recovered. I’m worried they might have blockages (or maybe parasites they’re both affected?) and don’t want to feed them up if it will make it worse.

I called a more rabbit savvy vet (the ones who treated Mr Roger for emergency GI stasis) and they said they couldn’t give us advice if the other vets had already said not to and to call the vets we saw earlier. I called them up and explained that since then Fred hadn’t eaten at all and George only nibbled hay. Fred looks fatter than ever and has been pooping mucus (sometimes mucus and poop and sometimes just mucus) but the vet on the phone insists that she must just not be eating her cecotropes and advised not to give either painkillers or critical care.

George is less lethargic than Fred, enough so that when I ignored what the vet said about painkillers and also gave simithicone she put up a fight. I haven’t given any critical care in case they are blocked up but I’m still worried about the advice given by the vet.

Here is Fred looking poopy and fat:

[Gina.Jenny]

I know its vital that bunnies keep food going through, so I would think the vets advice to feed only hay would be good advice? My understanding is sticky poo, or uneaten cecotropes, come from too much rich food.

Our first rescue bunny had a very sensitive tum, and had to eat almost only hay.

[Gina.Jenny]

ps, some very gentle baby wipes are good for cleaning icky bums without leaving a bunny wet, which is not good for them. after using the baby wipe, rub over with a towel, to remove the traces of whatever the baby wipe contains. an icky bun wont want to clean icky mess off herself, and I dont blame him or her!

[Paradigm]

Yeah, I also asked about whether to give them critical care though and was told not to… which seems worrying because Fred hasn’t eaten all day. We don’t have any baby wipes but I will see about picking some up.

Also stressed from a day from a day at work from hell today.

[Gina.Jenny]

I guess cc is maybe too rich, but she does need to eat something. can you contact the vet if she still hasnt eaten by the end of the day?

nb – make sure the baby wipes are sensitive and unperfumed if you can. its worth getting the thicker ones, not the thin value ones, but stores own brand are just as good as the pricier branded ones!

sorry yr day was so stressful. can you do something to de-stress, apart from anything else, you don’t want bunnies picking up yr stress!

[jerseygirl]

Can you refresh my memory on their age again?
Coccidia and or clostridium overgrowth is a common problem for young rabbits.

I’m not certain the first vet should have used the term “bloat” then sent you home without painkillers. Is the stomach distended and really tight. (Up just under the ribs).

If you’re comfortable posting the town/city & county where you live, I can ask some contacts for vet recommendations.

[Paradigm]

Well, my instinct that Fred was very ill was correct. I was on the verge of calling the vets a third time but my wife insisted that I shouldn’t claim to know better than a vet and that we’d done all we could.

We tried to give her the tiniest bit of kale to kickstart her appetite and make her eat anything because we hadn’t seen her eat all day. But even put under her nose she wasn’t interest.

Worried, I picked up up and her ears felt cold. I checked that it was safe to use a warm water bottle and got our microwavable bear to use supervised.

She seemed to enjoy the strokes but otherwise seemed extremely ill. I pointed this out to my wife and asked her to check on George. My wife pointed out that I shouldn’t hold Fred in my work uniform has she’s been pooping mucus.

We were considering taking them to the vets despite what they’d told us as I was sure something was wrong.

Just as I went to put her down to change my top I felt her jerk suddenly and her head seemed to drop off to the side. I quickly placed her on the bed to make sure I didn’t injure her if she jerked suddenly again. I yelled for my wife to come over and help.

She jerked suddenly a few more times and so my wife moved her to the floor as we were worried she would really hurt herself by falling off the bed.

She died a few moments later.

I knew there was something wrong.

As soon as she was taken out of the room, George started eating hay and then hopped across the room.

She seems to have a slightly rounded tummy but nothing like Fred’s but we’re not sure she’s just not a few days behind Fred.

[Paradigm]

We live in Oxford, England, UK. Not really sure where to take George now.

I think specifically the vet said “bring them back for their vaccinations when they’re no longer bloated”.

[Paradigm]

They’re 19 weeks. I’m not sure where to take George.

[jerseygirl]

I am so sorry!
Did the vet you saw know about Fred passing mucus or did this start happening after the visit?

Your description of how she passed is very like when my Jersey died. I know how difficult it is to see and my heart goes out to you and your wife.

[jerseygirl]

Okay. I’ll try find out some alternative vets for you. Again, I’m so sorry you’re going through this.

[Paradigm]

Yes, we called the two vet surgeries after she started passing mucus because I was sure it meant she had worsened.

I’m contemplating writing a letter of complaint. My wife says I’m looking for someone to be angry with and that I won’t do any good to make the vet upset. But I think that it might make them reconsider their actions if it ever happens again.

[Gina.Jenny]

I’m so sorry to read this

Binky free (((Fred)))

Really hope George is ok. I would at least make sure they know at the vets they got this so wrong, as the vet in question needs to learn from this

[jerseygirl]

This is all I have so far
http://www.bicestervets.co.uk
Lucy Dobree (EDIT: meant to post Lucy Howard, sorry)
(That was an older recommendation. I’ll try get something more current)

[Paradigm]

The two vet surgeries we called were Vets4Pets, Oxford and The Hart Vetenarinary Centre in Bicester.

I might call the number for Bicester vets (which is 24 hours) but the surgery itself seems to close at 18:30. (It’s 20:48 at the time of posting this.)

Thank you for your help.

[jerseygirl]

Good luck.

Your description of what Fred was experiencing sounds like mucoid enteritis.

[Paradigm]

It does. It looks like the prognosis for George is very poor, should it turn out she has the same as Fred. I wonder if we should should think about taking her to be put down.

We’d had them less than a week and a half. I can’t help but feel this is my fault.

[jerseygirl]

I can’t help but feel this is my fault.

It absolutely isn’t. There are some health conditions that affect rabbits around this age. From age they wean to 3-4 months.

I would notify the store where you got them.

[Bam]

This is not your fault.

George needs treatment asap though.

This is what Medirabbit writes about treatment:
As the disease develops very rapidly, treatment of bacterial enteritis often comes too late. Antibiotics and sulfonamide drugs will help prevent the growth of pathogen bacteria. Anti-diarrhea product can help stop the diarrhea, e.g. Hylak, a concentrate of lactic ferments. The administration of cholestyramine will bind toxins released by pathogen bacteria. Probiotic powders or paste, although controversial, will help the growth of the endemic healthy bacterial flora.

If the rabbit is dehydrated, subcutaneous fluids should be given. If the rabbit refuses to eat, it must be forced food, using a syringe.

In the case of yeast overgrowth, this can be treated by reduced the carbohydrates sources in the diet, or with nystatin.
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/Generalities/Enteritis_en.htm

I am so very sorry.

[Paradigm]

I shall contact them and call the vet.

What a day.

[jerseygirl]

Sorry Paradigm. The vet was Lucy Howard. As I said before, it was an old recc I’d found. Still waiting on response for current info.
Edit: Dr Howard not listed on current team but was with the practice.

[jerseygirl]

I’ve had one rabbit owner inform me they travel quite a ways to a rabbit savvy vet but for an emergency, theyll go to John Hart ( Hart Veterinary) for emergency. Not a rabbit expert but good with small animals.

[jerseygirl]

How is George doing?

[Paradigm]

George is now being treated with antibiotics, painkillers, recovery plus (pretty much critical care) and a dewormer.

Now that I know Fred didn’t have a blockage I wish I’d given her the Recovery Plus. It might have tided her over until this morning.

Although I suppose she might have survived if she’d been diagnosed properly in the first place. I wish I had been the one to take them because I wouldn’t have left with only that advice.

But similarly, people shouldn’t have to know better than their vet – I bet there’s tons of people just like my wife who believe what they’re tood.

[Bam]

(((((((George)))))))
I totally agree that people shouldn’t have to know better than their vets, why else would we need vets? I think I’ve read somewhere that vets are the cathegory of professionals that people tend to trust the most, probably because we are so vulnerable when our pets get sick. This means vets have lots of power, and they should take care not to misuse it. The treatment- advice you got from the first vet was insufficient, in my personal opinion. It seems George gets much better care, and I’m glad.

Fred may very well have been too sick for the Recovery Plus to have made a difference: Don’t beat yourself up about it, you consulted a vet and all your intentions were thoroughly good. It’s very sad, but your are not to blame in any way.

[Paradigm]

Although George wasn’t all that happy to be wrapped up and put into feeding position, she seemed to enjoy the last feed I gave her. She didn’t spit any of it out and actually licked the tube. (My syringe that is the right size has gone missing so I used a rounded piping tube.)

[Paradigm]

Yes, we spoke to the vet who gave us the bad advice again this morning and he said something about how he should have given us more information about feeding. We said that we know how to feed recovery plus anyway but he said he meant in general because most people don’t know how to look after rabbits.

I assume he was referring back to our unlimited feeding?

[Bam]

I would rather assume that he meant that people in general tend to over-feed their bunnies high-caloric food and under-feed them hay. This is undoubtedly a big problem with inexperienced bunny-owners, which you and your wife are not.

Changing a bunny’s diet is sth you must do over time, it’s not a measure to take when a rabbit is acutely and severely ill. To give you general info on appropriate bunny diet would’ve been ok if you’d taken the buns in for their vaccinations etc, but that was not the situation you were in.

It is generally recommended that baby bunnies get ad lib pellets, hay and often alfalfa hay. At 12 weeks you start adding greens. At 6 months or so, you restrict pellets and stop the alfalfa hay.

I hope that vet has learned sth by this. It may not have been possible to save Fred anyway, but in my personal opinion, he could have put in somewhat more of an effort.

[Paradigm]

Mm, I know it may not have been possible to save her but in the state she was in, if there was no way to save her, I think it would have been kinder to put her down.

I’m glad we did ignore the vet and give her painkillers anyway but she was obviously still uncomfortable.

At the moment George is having Recovery Plus and free access to two types of hay. We’re going to reintroduce the pellets slowly once she’s feeling better.

[Paradigm]

I took a photo of George being a good girl and a video of her eating the Recovery Plus. I also gave her some simithicone for good measure.

Interestingly, she doesn’t seem to upset by this and has been sniffing around by the bathroom door (where I feed Recovery Plus) and trying to get in. She’s now admitted defeat and is laying in front of the door but not hunched, with one ear up and almost looks peaceful.

[Bam]

As long as she’s getting Recovery Plus, there’s of course no need for pellets. I hadn’t heard of RP before but looked it up, it seems very good. She’ll get everything she needs from the RP. And if she’ll eat a little hay on her own, that’s just great.

I don’t really understand wehat that vet was thinking, but I wasn’t there, obviously. He must’ve somehow underestimated her degree of illness. Here a vet is required by law to euthanize suffering animals if no treatment can be offered to allieviate the suffering, regardless of how the owner feels about it. I would assume it’s much the same in the UK?

[Paradigm]

I think gross misestimation of their illness was the reason – otherwise he wouldn’t have advised to bring them back in three days after only offering food.

We’ve got enough recovery plus for a week, possibly more (we bought a whole box once when Mr Roger was ill) and while it would be nice for her not to need to be stressed by force feeding, I think that her getting all the nutrients so she can recover is more important than trying to encourage her to eat more.

[Bam]

I would think so too. Encourgaing her to eat more on her own is for when she’s feeling better. I once had to force feed one of my buns for 4 weeks, and it stressed him out so I was afraid he’d not make it, once he even cried out when I tried to catch him, and he bit me and fought me. But my vet said it’s far more dangerous for a bunny to have an empty stomach (and in the end, he was fine and forgave me in less than a day).

[Paradigm]

George squeaked at me last night when I gave her the painkillers. She wasn’t happy at all and I nearly gave up but thankfully she seems more laid back about it today without seeming horrendously ill like Fred did.

I saw her squatting as she often does when she’s peeing on my bed, except it was in my hallway where I’d taken some hay out to her (she gave me the bunny butt for my troubles) and she definitely pooped out pure mucus. I carried her back to her litter tray (as she hopped off to toilet on my clean laundry) and she seemed to be eating her cecotropes (rather than just smearing them all over our carpet and her tum as Fred did).

[Bam]

I so hope the abs will take care of that nasty mucoid poop =( Great that she ate her cecotropes!

Poor little girl, how pretty she is even when she’s sick.

[jerseygirl]

I hope the meds take affect soon.

Do you keep her up right for feeds and meds?

Would she eat the RP straight from a bowl?

I’m hoping to keep checking in but my ISP is down. I’m using wifi at sisters place at the moment. Sending more {{{vibes}}} for George.

[Bam]

Yes, as Jersey says, you should keep her upright when you feed her, or else there’s a risk for aspiration. I usually sit the bunny in my knee, its back against my tummy when I have to syringe feed.

[Paradigm]

I think I’ll put the bowl down for her tonight.

She’s tilted down a bit for the photograph. I don’t feed her fully vertically but I do make sure her head is well above her bum.

[Paradigm]

We had to leave her for a short while this afternoon but were sure to feed her before we left.

We came back to find that she’d pooped in our kitchen in a few pictures. Looking at the poo chart for rabbits, it looks closest to Cecal Dysbiosis. It really stank and had no/barely any form (there were a few piles) but it was all fecal matter rather than mucus so I’m counting it as a success.

She also left a wee, so maybe she wasn’t feeling up to going to her box. She does seem a little despondent but it is coming up to her next dose of metacam so maybe that’s why.

[Bam]

It does sound good that it’s less gel and more fecal matter
Sometimes when they don’t feel good they go outside the box. She must be a bit bewildered by l this I should think, it would be strange if she wasn’t.

[LittlePuffyTail]

I’m so very, very sorry for the loss of little Fred. (((Binky Free Fred)))

Wishing very strongly that all your love and care (and the proper diagnosis) will help George make a full recovery.

[Paradigm]

They still don’t know exactly what it is so she’s got antibiotics and parasite treatment but I’m hoping that we’ll hit the right target.

The good news is that just now she’s started to nibble some hay.

My wife is going to feed George tomorrow which is something she’s nervous about having never done it before.

[Bam]

I’m so glad she’s nibbling on hay!!
Could you perhaps do a little test-round tonight so your wife gets to practice with you just standing by? It can be tricky to syringe-feed a bunny when you’re on your own, so I can understand she’s nervous about it. I’d say that determination is key.
I make a bunny burrito and sit the bunny in my lap, its back against my belly. Then I stabilize the head with my left hand and insert the syringe with my right. It may take some time and lots of food generally goes on the bunny and my clothes, but as long as most of it gets into the bunny it’s ok.
Sometimes it’s even good that the bunny gets some food on its fur because whether the bun cleans itself or not tells you quite a bit about how ill it is. A bun on the mend will clean itself.

[Paradigm]

She’s been cleaning herself off this evening which is good because it meant I could get away with a sloppy last feed before bed.

She’s also been eating her cecotropes even more and hopping between piles of hay to find the best bits (our room home is covered in hay where we’ve put it anywhere they might have liked to have sat).

I showed my wife how to do it and let her use the syringe. I’m not sure she’d feel comfortable doing it alone (as usually I do it alone) but provided she doesn’t go down hill overnight hopefully it won’t be too urgent to actually get it in her mouth.

[Bam]

It does sound like she’s improving! Let’s hope she’ll keep it up

[Gina.Jenny]

healing vibes (((George))) hoping she’s on the road to recovery

[jerseygirl]

Good signs if she’s nibbling at hay. (still adjusting to calling George “she”!)

I wonder is Questran might help or not? It helps bind toxins in the gut. But it’s yet another thing up give by mouth and that means more stress. If you can get hold of things like raspberry or blackberry leaves, it can have same kind of affect. An unwell bunny will often choose to eat forage type food also. It’s like their natural instinct knows what will help them.

[Paradigm]

Since George seems to be getting better we’re probably going to stick with what we’re doing, especially as she’s been having so many things by mouth.

Today, she seems to have deflated even more. She’s been eating lots of hay but seems not to like Recovery Plus when put in a bowl (only ate a tiny bit).

My wife managed to get her medicine down her but didn’t have much success with the Recovery Plus.

She got a few pellets out of her treat ball and so we put maybe a teaspoon of them out in the hope of it being a slow introduction. I was cautious about reintroducing it so soon after she’s been ill but if she’s not going to eat the Recovery Plus by herself then I don’t want her any more traumatised than necessary (plus we don’t know that the pellets were the issue anyway).

I’m so glad she’s doing better – she’s even done some pellet type poos (I think normal might be a stretch) and even chased me this morning when I got up (she assumed she was going to be served pellets I think).

But it’s bitter sweet because I can’t help but think if she recovered so quickly then Fred needn’t have died.

We’re going to call around some local vets to see if any seem better.

We’ve also talked about getting George a friend once she’s better (after her spay so in about 2 months at the earliest). But we haven’t much room to bond them and definitely wouldn’t have space to keep two separately.

I do think my wife has warmed up to a wider variety of buns now – she’s never really wanted a girl bun and thought they would be less loving pets if we got a pair. This time she was even the one to suggest it.

Part of me is still reeling from loosing two buns in two weeks (I think if Mr Roger had to die, then he went the best way – I keep replaying the moment Fred died in my mind and it was horrific) but I also don’t want George to get lonely. She undeniably enjoyed Fred’s company.

Another odd thing was that if she wasn’t convinced that having mixed sized bun pairs would be dreadful, then we saw a giant rabbit (the size of a small dog!) that was adorable and said that if the circumstances were different we’d consider one whereas before she was very anti-non-dwarf rabbits.

I do think it’s good that her horizons have opened but keep wishing we still had Fred.

It’s so odd that she’s not here as they were such a pair.

Fred was shy with us (though she began to warm up to us) but she was very clingy with George.

I’m not sure work could have gone better today, which was a relief for everyone involved unlike Monday.

At the moment George is looking very disgruntled because I fed her. It’s quite amusing.

We’ve hoovered half the floor which concerned me because I didn’t want to frighten her, but it also was necessary because we’d mostly held off since getting the babies and between that and spreading hay about to entice them it was beginning to resemble a beach of hay dust. (You know your floor is dirty when despite already being sun lightened it changes colour when you Hoover it…)
I will give her the painkillers and then it’s time for bed, I think.

[Paradigm]

We’re also going to buy the toys we were planning on getting when we took them for their neuter that wasn’t to be tomorrow.

Possibly also a hay rack because George enjoys toileting on her hay much more than Mr Roger and also doesn’t seem like she’d be quite so difficult about only removing the “very, very best” pieces from the rack.

My wife has taken to calling her Georgie. Ordinarily from “Georgie Podgie” but now because she’s a girl.

I still quite like her name, nothing wrong with gender ambiguous names (besides, there was a George in the famous five).

[Bam]

Exactly what I was thinking, George in the Famous Five. I loved those books.
I know some bunnies will eat their CC from a spoon or a plate, but I can assure you mine won’t. So I don’t think that’s abnormal. I don’t think the pellets were the issue, your first vet clearly didn’t get the diagnosis right. But you could ask your current vet just to make sure you do everything right.

I’m so glad she’s “flattening” and producing normal-like poop now.

I don’t know if you have shelters in the UK that offer bunny speed-dating. That way a bunny can choose his/her own mate by standards us humans can’t have a clue about. It would greatly improve the chances of good bonding.

[Paradigm]

There must be one somewhere nearby because our friend said her parents used to take their bunnies dating after a success of fox eatings. (Current bunny is housed inside, thankfully.)

Our main problem is that we’re not meant to have pets so we can’t really go anywhere that does home checks. I know some shelters only do home checks for some animals.

[Bam]

You could wait until you move to another place, perhaps. After all, George has to recover from this ordeal and then she needs to be spayed and heal from the spay before you can think about bonding her to another bun.

I’m not really in favor of shelters doing home checks. I can see how they want to do it so their bunnies don’t end up as snake food or rabbit casserole, but since they have adoption fees, shelter bunnies wouldn’t be of interest to snake-owners and rabbit-eaters.

Bunny dating sounds awesome though. There’s nothing like it where I live.

[Paradigm]

Yeah, we might end up waiting as we’d feel terrible having to return one because bonding went wrong or if George wasn’t ready.

I can see both sides of the coin, as it were. On one hand adoption places that don’t do checks can do what the place we got Mr Roger from did – hire out spaces so the adoption buns are very close to the buns-to-buy and so people who might not have otherwise considered adopting are exposed to buns they might have otherwise overlooked.

But the places that do home checks, such as the RSPCA, also check to make sure your garden is secure and that the bunny’s housing is of a good size.

[Bam]

Yes I can see want the RSPCA does is a good thing, there are lots of misconceptions and ignorance out there regarding proper care and housing for a bunny.

[Lee]

A lot of shelters/rescues also check to ensure if you rent you have owner permission to have a pet. Unfortunately a big reason animals end up in shelters is because people cant have them in their rental properties and they get found out having them and need to give them up or lose their house. So I understand checking your housing status for that reason too.

I am so sorry to hear about Fred, how absolutely heartbreaking for you.

[Paradigm]

Yeah, we’re not really ideal owners in that respect…

It is very sad.

George has become quite thin now – her spine is quite prominant and she’s grown longer while loosing slightly more than 100g.

She wasn’t really taking to the Burgess excel adult nuggets and since we were almost out and already slowly transitioning we bought the junior/dwarf version.

I’m not she whether it’s the smaller sizes, a slightly different flavour or a new bag but before I served her the new stuff I tried putting the old pack into its back and back into its bowl – no interest. She’s been all over the junior ones since they were first put out, though.

[Author]

Messages