Cause found: sore under tongue

[OliverBun]

I’m hoping someone else has experienced this issue and can provide some insight. Oliver hasn’t been eating…although he’s been seeming like he wants to. So this morning I took him in to see the vet again. She sedated him and found a large sore under his tongue on the right side of his mouth. She said he had some very small molar spurs but she didn’t think those were bad enough to cause the sore that he had. She said this is why Olive is refusing to eat and has been favoring the right side of his mouth. She’s lost as to the reason he may have this sore. So our plan of treatment is to give critical care and hope it clears up on it’s own. If he doesn’t start eating, though, we have no way of treating his sore and will probably have to put him to sleep. I really don’t want that to happen.

Has anyone else experienced something like this and have any suggestions about what may have caused this, how to treat this or how to prevent this? I’ve been looking for other BB posts and I can only find posts about sores on the lips, never under the tongue.

Thanks in advance and sorry for all the posts.

[Elliriyanna]

What kind of sore is it? Abrasion? possibly fluid filled or absess? They tend to have different treatments. Sorry if that seems like an odd info request.

[JackRabbit]

LittlePuffyTail is one person you should definiyely talk with about molar spurs and tongue sores. If she doesn’t see your post, try pming her and reference your post.

[OliverBun]

The vet didn’t say. She said it was just a sore that didn’t look infected and there was no apparent cause. I bet it’s not fluid filled because she would have mentioned that.
She seemed very confused about what would have caused this sore (at one point she said ulcer) because there wasn’t any apparent trauma or tooth problems.
She thinks he has neurological issues because apparently as he was coming out of sedation he was bobbing his head a bunch and his eyes were rolling around. Not sure if that info helps at all.
I am picking him up in two hours and she’s going to show me a picture of the sore and we’ll talk more then; but she said she has no treatment plan for me except to hope that it heals on its own. I would hate to have him not survive something so minor….I’m very nervous that he won’t survive this since we don’t have a treatment plan.

Thanks, JackRabbit. I’ll contact LittlePuffy Tail.

[Bam]

I don’t know anything about tongue-sores, I just wanted to send some vibes. At least it’s something, that you’ve found a cause. It’s a starting point.

[OliverBun]

Thank you bam. I’m scared that because we don’t have a treatment, he won’t recover and won’t survive. Rabbits are so incredibly frustrating.

[So Fluffy Bunny]

Has your bunny been getting a lot of fruits(berries) that have citric acid in them? It may sound crazy but sometimes too much citric acid even if its done in small doses could cause a sore, but its just a guess.

[Bam]

I know Oliver, it’s so crazy scary when they’re not well.

LPT has a bunny who had to have half his tongue amputated. I’ve been trying to find the thread where she wrote about this situation, but I can’t seem to find it. I hope she’ll log on soon so she sees your PM. 

[OliverBun]

Well he was getting a lot of apples and apple juice when he was going through the worst of the stasis. That was one of the only things he would eat/drink (diluted apple juice of course). Thank you So Fluffy Bunny!!! Any ideas for causes are helpful.

[LittlePuffyTail]

Hi, OlivierBunny 

I’m sorry your Oliver is having difficulties. 

My Bindi needs his molar spurs trimmed every 4-6 months. We’ve had 2 occurances that left him with mouth trauma even though his spurs didn’t seem that bad. The first time was an abscess in his mouth which was treated with oral antibiotics and pain meds and the second time the spurs rubbing on his tongue actually caused an ulcer so bad that about 1/3 of his tongue had to be removed. So, it’s possible that even with just mild spurs, sores and irritation can develop.

I think it seems pretty extreme to say you should put your bunny to sleep due to a sore in his mouth. If I were you, I would seek a second opinion. If it is an ulcer or an abscess, he should be prescribed something. There is also the possibility of oral cancer. My cat had a tumor under her tongue. But before jumping to that, I would rule out abscess or ulcer. He could have also injured his mouth, possibly with a piece of hay.

I wish I could be of more help, but I really think you need to involve another vet. It’s most likely something that needs medication and some pain meds, like Metacam, would help relieve some pain, possibly letting him eat more.

[OliverBun]

Thank you for your input. He’s already on daily metacam because of arthritis. I asked about antibiotics and she said not right now because it didn’t look infected and she didn’t want to cause gi stasis since that can happen. If I read your post correctly, you think he needs to be on antibiotics. Is that correct?

[JackRabbit]

I think LPT is saying that a 2nd opinion would be a good idea.

I have seen so many times on here that some bunnies have issues with even the tiniest spurs.

[OliverBun]

Ah OK. Well the vet trimmed his spurs just in case. I’m going to give him a chance to recover a bit and see if he’ll eat prior to taking him to another vet because I don’t want to sedate him two days in a row. Just to be clear… I was concerned about having to put him down after all options are exhausted and he still won’t eat.I absolutely am not considering that unless r wrong eat and there’s nothing else that can be done.

[JackRabbit]

Hopefully with the spurs trimmed and the pain meds that he’ll eat more soon. I wonder if they ever do antibiotics to prevent infection when there’s a sore. I’ve never dealt with teeth issues myself (LPT would be my go to person if I did though).

[OliverBun]

Oliver just ate a piece of kale, 5 stalks of cilantro, 2 large dandelion greens and some critical care. Then he purred. I know it’s early but this is the most he’s eaten in 4 days. Woo hoo!!!

[Lee]

Yay! Great news!

[JackRabbit]

Good job Oliver!

[LittlePuffyTail]

Glad to hear it! Hopefully, with the spurs trimmed now, if they were the cause, his mouth will start to heal.

Yes, Jackrabbit is correct. I can’t say for sure whether he should be on antibiotics or not. Just saying what I would do in your situation. But hopefully, with him eating and his teeth trimmed, it will heal on it’s own and he won’t need anything further.

[BelarusianBunny]

Hi OliverBunny,

I really can’t offer any information about sores under a bunny’s tongue.  However, I do have experience with a very elderly bunny that experienced some kind of chronic mouth pain that kept him from eating normally.  As well, he had neurological issues (head bobbing and rolling eyes) like your vet mentioned could be happening with your sweet bun.  I really want to send all the vibes possible as I understand this is such a difficult period in a bunny’s life.  Both of you need hugs!

My bunny Dima was interested in food but completely went off of it months before I had to put him down.  His mouth was in some kind of discomfort.  Due to age, the vet didn’t want to investigate inside his mouth out of fear the little 2 lb elderly dwarf wouldn’t make it.  In March or April, he decided that harder foods (such as dry pellets and hay) were out of the question.  At that point, until December when he passed, I made sure all his food was soaked.  As well, since hay was out of the question, he ate pellets that had a good portion of hay in them (such as Timothy based.)  When I noticed his weight was going down or he wasn’t eating as much as usual, I gave him Critical Care to help him along.  The vet also suggested regular ol’ human baby food for a liquid high calorie supplement to his diet.  This is how I managed to keep my bunny pretty happy until he told me he needed to hop over the bridge.

Naturally, he had Metacam for pain.

I just wanted to let you know I feel for you and Olive.  All the best to you both. 

[OliverBun]

BelarusianBunny, thank you for your kind words. I’m very sorry you had such a stressful time with Dima. I don’t know how you handled that. I can barely handle these two weeks of struggles with Oliver.

…No more independent eating since his small snack earlier, but he has been accepting critical care willingly. I really hope he’s able to recover from this.

[OliverBun]

Oliver seems to be in good spirits today. He’s napped most of the day, pooped a bit and had some quality cuddle/grooming time with his black lab, Bill. However, he’s still refusing to eat greens. I’ve been giving him unlimited pellets, alfalfa hay and syringing him critical care (he’s had about a tbsp today). He’s eaten a few bites of hay and maybe a tsp of pellets. I’m wondering if all this high calorie food may be causing him to not eat his greens.

I’m wondering if I should try to not give critical care tonight and give him his usual small portion of pellets when I put him to bed in an attempt to get him back on his greens? On the other hand, I don’t want him to refuse them and go without food all night. Anyone have thoughts on how to handle this?

His mouth is clearly still bothering him, but he’s doing the strange chewing movements less than before.

[LBJ10]

I would keep giving him the critical care for now. Getting him to eat, no matter what it is, is better than nothing. Once he is feeling better, you can try holding off on the critical care to see if he will eat something on his own. But do it during the day, when you are able to monitor him.

[Bam]

I too would keep the CC up for a little while longer. The first time my Yohio had his tiny little molar spurs removed, he still refused to eat properly on his own for nearly a week after. Oliver has been through quite a lot lately, so imo, he needs his calories for his recovery.

[OliverBun]

The vet called today. She’s worried that Olive wont make it since she doesn’t think the spurs caused the tongue sore. He’s still not eating greens. There doesn’t seem to be any change in his eating habits. After this conversation I’m freaking out that he won’t start eating again and I’ll have no choice but to put him down. I’d like some input on what everyone here thinks his chances for recovery are. He’s quite lethargic today.

[BelarusianBunny]

Hi OliverBunny,

I am so so so so sorry you are enduring this and Olive is having a difficult time. This is one of the hardships of loving senior bunnies.

I don’t really know what to say about recovery and what to expect. However, I can give you an example of when I “knew” it was time for my old little guy to cross the bridge. I would imagine a mouth sore would take time to heal though.

How does Olive eat his Critical Care from the syringe? If he shows interest in food and “wants” to eat it, there may be a chance for recovery. Many times, especially in his last two years, I thought Dima was done for but he ate his Critical Care with vigor. He would be ill and listless but he would grab the syringe and eat. I also found that when I increased the amount I fed him, he would gain a bit more energy. As in, he wasn’t providing himself with adequate calories for normal energy as well as to heal.

In the last week of his life, he stopped doing that with the Critical Care. I put it into his mouth and he couldn’t be bothered. It would simply fall out of the sides of his mouth. As well, he went off his treats (showed no interest at all) and used his final energy to turn away from his soaked pellets. It was then I knew that his time had come.

If your poor sweet bun has no enjoyment from food anymore (of any kind) and he cannot keep up the calories required, it may be his time. If anything, I know senior bunny recovery takes a lot more time than a younger or middle aged one. Many times I kept my senior guy going by constant feedings of Critical Care. If he didn’t start eating on his own (but put weight on from the CC and interested in it), I kept up with the Critical Care until the time he wanted to eat on his own.

I’m thinking of you two and sending vibes.

[OliverBun]

Unfortunately, Olive shows no interest in food. Critical care is a fight. He still wants treats, but that’s about it. He will only occasionally nibble on bits of food because I follow him around the house putting it in front of his face every time he lays down. Thank you for your input.

[LittlePuffyTail]

I’m sad to hear this.

How is he doing today?

[OliverBun]

He’s not doing well. Last night he ate about a half a cup of greens so I was very optimistic for today. However, he hasn’t eaten at all today and hasn’t done anything but sleep. He’s not purring when I pet him either. My fiancé maintains that we should give him a few more days. But I just don’t see any joy from him anymore. So if he doesn’t eat dinner tonight I’m going to call the vet in the morning and bring him in and say goodbye. This is so hard. I want to give him more time but I don’t want him to starve?

[OliverBun]

Olive is eating more tonight ( although still only pellets) and seems more energetic. He is visibly losing weight. I’ve been playing video games to distract myself from the stress. I feel lucky that because of my career i get the summer off and can be with him through this. Please send him vibes, prayers, thoughts or whatever else to begin eating greens and hay again soon. I want my baby to survive.

[LBJ10]

It sounds like he still wants to fight, so don’t give up on him. I do worry about the sore becoming infected though, but you said the vet didn’t want to prescribe antibiotics?

[OliverBun]

No she said it didn’t look infected and because antibiotics could cause stasis she didn’t want to prescribe them. I’m calling her in the morning. Should I insist on antibiotics?
She had no idea what caused the sore. That makes me feel like it won’t heal…
It’s so hard to stay positive during this time.

[Lee]

{{{{VIBES FOR OLIVER and YOU}}}}

[Bam]

It’s only been 4 days since he had his spurs done, I’d think it’d be reasonable to wait a week to see if the sore will heal on its own. But if he’s losing weight visibly in spite of getting CC, I would fear this is something more serious. Has your vet said anything about the possibility of it being a cancerous ulcer? It would be something to suspect if the patient was a human, but I don’t know if it can apply to bunnies.

(((((((((Oliver)))))))))

[OliverBun]

Yes she said that. But she said there’s nothing to be done if it’s cancer.

[OliverBun]

Also, I can never get enough cc in him in one day. Yesterday he ate 39ml which was a huge success. The other days I only got 15 in him.

[Bam]

I’ve never managed to get the recommended amount of CC in a bunny. So whatever you can get into him is of course great.

If it is cancer, there is nothing to be done, I was just thinking it often feels to know the cause so you don’t have to worry about having done sth wrong or not enough etc. It is difficult dealing with illness in a pet as it is.

[OliverBun]

He did the same weird chewing stuff back in January and then eventually stopped. However, he never stopped eating. That makes me think he’s had this since then and therefore it won’t heal.

[OliverBun]

I talked to the vet this morning. She said that there is nothing more she can do for him. So she said if he’s not better in a week that the most humane thing to do is put him down. The other option is to drive him 1.5 hrs away for further testing . However, I can’t afford to do that financially and I’m not sure how much they’d be able to do anyway. I feel like taking him there would be more for me than for him. So I’m going send all of my energy towards my beautiful boy to heal on his own. It would break my heart if he didn’t recover.

[luna1243]

How’s your baby doing? My heart goes out to you I hope oliver pulls through.

[OliverBun]

Thank you Luna. He seems totally normal Oliver today personality-wise. Except he’s not eating. He had a small amount of greens for breakfast but nothing else. Hes been eating a excessive amount of cecals today…which I’m choosing to believe is his body healing itself. He’s napping peacefully now. I am barely holding it together. I so hope he pulls through.

[jerseygirl]

Will he eat critical care out of a bowl?
You can also add tablespoon of hot water to pellets, let soak in the fluff them up a bit. Serve cooled of course.

How long has he been on metacam? It can cause loss of appetite sometimes.

So the sore is on underside of the tongue or floor of the mouth?

{{{Vibes}}} for the little guy!

[OliverBun]

He’s been on it for a bit over a year. He’s eating significantly less, not just decreased appetite from drugs. He won’t eat it out of the bowl only out of the syringe. The sore is on the bottom right side of his tongue. There’s a little indent that’s visible on the right top side of his tongue and then on the bottom there’s a huge whole.

[jerseygirl]

Wow! That would have been horrible to find.
So a hole like a cavity? I wonder if it’s the remains of a burst abscess? Things can go to abscess very fast in rabbits.

Were the spurs the vet found on the right side also?

[OliverBun]

Yeah like a cavity. What would cause an abscess/ would it heal? Yeah the small spur was on the right side too. However, it looks so small. It barely counts as a spur.

[jerseygirl]

You’d be surprised, it doesn’t take much. I’m surprised your vet doesn’t think it’s linked. Another thing with spurs is often there is malocclusion so it could be possible he bit that side accidentally.

Or simply there was injury from some hay or wood splinter.

Abscesses form quickly in rabbits. Once the skin has been perforated, opportunistic bacteria can move in and cause abscessation. Bacteria that normally doesn’t cause issue until there’s inflammation in the body.

Luckily the metacam is an anti-inflammatory and will be keeping him comfortable at least. We hope! He sounds like he’s having good days.

[OliverBun]

Yes he is having good days. He really doesn’t seem stressed at all. The vet said it didn’t look like it was infected at all. From the picture she gave me it looks completely puss free…just a big whole. Hopefully it was the spur thAt caused it. I figure that if he is going to improve, he will show some significant signs of it within 10 days after the spur being filed.

[jerseygirl]

Yes, if it was the spur that’s the culprit, then I think you’ve taken the right steps FWIW. Having him sedated and thoroughly checked out and those spurs trimmed off.

{{{healing vibes}}}

By the way, the avatar pic of him with your Lab is adorable. <3

[OliverBun]

Thank you. I feel so helpless just watching him sit and not eat.
That’s Oliver’s dog, Bill. Olive loves him very much.

[JackRabbit]

{{{{{Oliver}}}}}

Hoping for eating and healing for you boy.

[LBJ10]

The reason I was surprised the vet didn’t prescribe antibiotics is because they will often be prescribed as a precaution in a case like this. But if the vet thinks it looks good and clean and wants to wait and see, then I suppose it is okay to go that route. Like Jersey said though, bacteria is opportunistic and can set in quickly in rabbits.

You said he’s been on Metacam for a long time. Perhaps he has built up a tolerance.

[OliverBun]

Here’s a photo of the photo I have. It doesn’t look infected to me. What do you think?

(I keep just getting the link but I’ve inserted the image. Last time this happened it just took a second so I’m going to leave as is and hope the image shows up)

[Roberta]

Long term anti inflammatories can mess with their tummies. Pascal has meloxicam on going and his vet is adamant he must always have them with food. For this reason I always give him the meds in 10ml of crittacare. It seems to work and his tummy is doing ok.

[Bam]

The black on the pic, is that the wound cavity that just looks black on the pic or does it actually have black tissue in it?

I agree with LBJ that antibiotics are often given as a profylactic measure.

Metacam does have GI side-effect, especially with long-term use, I think Roberta’s advice is good, to mix it with CC (crittacare is the Australian version of CC).

[OliverBun]

The black isn’t actually there. It’s just a poor quality photo.

[OliverBun]

Last night Olive ate a bunch of pellets and a good portion of greens. He prefers pellets over greens, so I’d like to see if just giving him greens this morning will make him eat them. Is it safe at this point to withhold pellets and cc for about 5 hours?

[jerseygirl]

I’d be inclined to keep offering whatever he is going for. However, if you’re concerned too many pellets will upset his gut, try just greens but shredding them up. It’s probably the chewing motion he is avoiding at the moment.

Is he drinking on his own?

[OliverBun]

Yep he’s drinking just fine. Thanks for the suggestion. He’s been eating pellets almost exclusively for 3 weeks now. I’m just worried he may choose those over the greens because he can and I won’t see signs of improvement.

[LittlePuffyTail]

What type of greens are you offering? Maybe some softer ones like carrot tops, cilantro and green leaf lettuce.

[Bam]

I’m glad the black isn’t black irl! That would’ve meant necrotic tissue which would not have been good.

[OliverBun]

You know I was just thinking… What is stopping us from sedating him again on Thursday and checking in progress with healing? Is there any reason why I shouldn’t do that? That would be 7 days from the time the spurs got trimmed. I would think there would be some visible progress if it’s going to her better… Right?

[jerseygirl]

Mmm tough one. Maybe that’s a qu for the vet?

What anaesthetic do they use?

My concern would be how long it lingers in their system, if at all.
Maybe the isoflurane gas???

[OliverBun]

Olive still won’t eat his greens but has been grooming the dog a lot today. This is something he hasnt done in a few days. Could that be a sign that good tongue is feeling better?

[Bam]

To me it would seem like a sign of feeling better. Taking an active interest in the dog and using his tongue to groom him – it is somewhat promising imo.

[OliverBun]

Thank you bam. I’m having a hard time telling if he’s improving. Objective opinions help.

[OliverBun]

So I talked to the vet today. She said it’s totally possible for rabbits to survive on pellets alone. My question to her was is he comfortable and healthy on pellets alone. She couldn’t tell me. She said I need to evaluate his happiness and comfort myself. Provided nothing changes, Olive hops around for about an hour every morning, says hello to the dog and munches on some pellets. Then he comes to me for pets and purrs while I pet him. He then sleeps or lounges around for the rest of the day. He doesn’t seem to be in pain but doesn’t seem to have much desire to explore or play. In everyone’s wise bunny experience, does that sound like a happy and healthy bunny? I have nothing to make my judgement against.

[Bam]

To me it sounds like a content rabbit. What you describe is what my Bam does in a day, more or less. (Except Bam eats everything I give him). Bam has never been very interested in exploring or playing. He’s a very laid-back bunny.

Rabbits can survive on pellets alone, many rabbits get nothing else. Since Oliver obviously have problems with other food, you have to go with what works for him.

[OliverBun]

Here is his typical evening position.

[JackRabbit]

Is is true that rabbits can survive without salad. Each bunny is different and has different needs. Of my three, Moshi is my salad problem boy. Anything more than a teeny salad and he has messy mushy poops by the next day. We’ve tried everything, and the only thing that keeps the mushy poops away is increasing his pellets and not giving him more than a tiny salad (maybe 10 bites). He does eat a ton of hay so no worries there. Our vet has even said that while some bunnies don’t handle pellets well, some don’t handle salads well and that he may end up having to be on a pellet and hay only diet.

[LBJ10]

To be honest, this sounds like improvement to me. He may not be interested in veggies for awhile. That’s okay. He’s eating something, so let him eat what he will eat. I don’t see any reason to give up on him yet. Like bam, my bunnies spend a good portion of the day just lying around.

[OliverBun]

I have no intention of giving up on him unless he is obviously uncomfortable and/or unhappy. He’s in his cage for the night now and I can hear him eating a few pieces of lettuce!! Thank you for all of the support through this.

[LBJ10]

Good to hear! I’m sure he will keep progressing slowly but surely.

[OliverBun]

So many questions! So Olive is not being himself at all. He really just lays around…which is a huge change in his previous behavior…making me concerned. He’s still purring and not hiding ( although he is isolating himself in the bedroom about 2-3 times daily for a while, which is a change). I’m wondering if this is normal given everything he’s been through? What sort of symptoms should I look for to indicate something else is going on…like the sore got infected? Thanks!

[OliverBun]

Just a quick update…Olive seems mostly back to his old self. He came dashing towards dinner tonight like normal and is currently munching away at his veggies AND greens. I am not ready to say this whole ordeal is over until it’s a few days in but he does seems to be on a steady improvement path. What an awful few weeks it’s been. I’m so happy to hear his normal dinner eating sounds tonight!

[LBJ10]

Good to hear! Keep an eye on him. Symptoms of infection (aside from a wound that looks infected) can be subtle and may include fever, lethargy, etc. It would be difficult for you to look at his tongue to see if there was any redness/swelling/ickiness, so it would probably be a good idea to have the vet recheck it after awhile to make sure it’s still healing. Otherwise, he is eating and that is a good sign. I’m sure he is starting to feel better. Sometimes it just takes time, but he seems to be progressing now. =)

[OliverBun]

I’m so scared of infection. Maybe I’ll schedule something 2 weeks from the first sedation to have his tongue checked… My vet didn’t seem to want to sedate him again, though. He didn’t really eat greens this morning again… I’m wondering what the appropriate serving of pellets is for him given the situation. What should I be getting every day?

[LittlePuffyTail]

How is Oliver doing today? I’m glad to hear he has been eating and more like himself.

I think a follow up check would be a good idea just to make sure all is healing up and so you can have an idea of what is going on in his mouth now.

[OliverBun]

He seems ok today. He ate his regular dinner last night ( 1/16th cup of pellets and 1 cup of greens). This morning I gave him his normal breakfast which has no pellets and he’s eaten about half. Still no hay but I think that’s because he’s been spoiled with unlimited greens and pellets lately. So I am hopeful that over the next week or so I can get him eating hay again. He’s livelier in general but still more docile than before this happened. I hope that will change once he’s back to his usual diet.
I hate sedating him and my vet doesn’t seem to want to do it again since “it’ll reveal itself in his behavior whether or not he’s healing.” She seems very focused on me taking him to the research hospital that’s 80 miles away and that that’s the only thing we can do for him…She’s convinced he has a neurological problem because he does head bobbing sometimes. Personally, I think that’s just gas related to eating broccoli which he no longer eats.
In short…my vet thinks sedating him to check on his mouth won’t be of benefit and that he really should go to this hospital to have them look at his mouth and get a CT scan to reveal neurological problems. I disagree and think he’s got no neurological problems and probably got that sore from the small spur. I think we should sedate him again and check on his mouth. I’m sure she’ll do that if I insist.
I’m not sure what the best next steps are.

[LBJ10]

They would sedate him at this research hospital anyway, so I don’t see what the problem is with your current vet. I mean, what difference would it make if he was sedated there vs being sedated at the research hospital?

[OliverBun]

Because more could be done there…like the scan. I think she feels she’s done all she can and sedating him wouldn’t give any new information. Either his tongue is healing or it’s not. Either way unless we know more there’s nothing more we can do.
He’s nearly 10 and hates going to the vet…I think taking him there would be way too much for him.

[Author]

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