Bacteria levels chart

[Avantika]

So yesterday I went ahead with Moshu’s urine culture. The report will come by Monday morning. I got it done from a human path lab. I know it might baffle you but in the country I come from, veterinary testing labs are not very common. A lot of people get their pet’s tests done at human path labs only. I know its not recommended because there is scope for contamination but the lab where I gave Moshu’s sample is a reliable one. There are a few vet labs but because they are one of the few ones, they charge much more.

I wanted to know if any of you have any PDF file or image file/any website where they have information about the healthy-unhealthy ranges of the bacterias ? I am going to take the report to the vet of course (for the first I have heard a vet here being ‘exotic specialist’) but I still dont trust them completely because of my prior experiences. 

[Deleted User]

I’m sure you know this already Avantika, ha ha ha – I have NO idea! But just wanted you to know I read your forum and I get you!
When I found out that stopping Henry from spraying was as simple as having him neutered I couldn’t get to my doggy vet quick enough for them to say see Dr so and so at this place, as they deal in exotic’s. I was thinking, ‘what’s so exotic about Henry’? LOL!

[Bam]

Avantika, there actually shouldn’t be bacteria in urine. It should be sterile in the bladder and when it leaves the body. When they do a culture, they see if there are bacteria that will grow in a medium in a petri dish. Some bacteria won’t grow in such a medium, those won’t show up in a culture.

If they find bacteria, they should type them and from the typing, your vet should be able to prescribe an appropriate antibiotic.You can post the bacterial findings here of course, then we can help you find an antibiotics-type that’s suitable and in line with what your vet should prescribe, if you are a little suspiscious of your vet, I mean. 

[LBJ10]

Yep, there shouldn’t be any bacteria. And do make sure any antibiotics prescribed are rabbit-safe. There are quite a few that should not be given to bunnies.

[Avantika]

I am not that great at biology (I am embarrassed ). I dont know how the mechanism of UTI works. Basically I did that test to confirm that she has UTI. I am already pretty sure about it as there is noticeable bladder incontinence. Sometimes she isnt too keen on eating, thats another indicator that something is wrong. If the tests show a negative result, the next possible thing could be bladder stones. Her urine is a bit chalky sometimes but there aint any bladder sludge. I noticed while I collected the sample that her urine was cloudy. Light in color. Usually it is darker.

Moshu has had UTI a few months back and she was prescribed Enrofloxacin. I am pretty sure they are going to prescribe the same again. I read in a PDF book of rabbit disorders that sulfa drugs work better in case of UTIs than Quinolones. I hope she is prescribed something from the Sulfa drugs group this time. Maybe I can suggest that to the vet.

Bam, I will type the results here as soon as I get the report. It should be out by tomorrow morning/afternoon. Thank you

[Bam]

Well, it’s good to know what type of bacteria there are if there are any, since some bacteria are more sensitive to some antibiotics and some to other antibiotics. Getting the wrong type of ab will mean they won’t kill the bacteria that are causing the UTI and then you’d have to try some other kind of abs and of course you want Moshu to get well asap. So it’s good you got a culture done.

[LBJ10]

I agree, since you’re doing a culture, then you should get the type of bacteria in the results. Sometimes when diagnosing a UTI, they simply look at the urine to see if there is a high level of white blood cells. They suggest an infection, but you don’t know what kind. In cases like that, they will prescribe a broad-spectrum antibiotic and hope it works. And if it doesn’t, then they try another.

[Megabunny]

I’m guessing that there will be SOME bacteria, but I assume the vet will take that into consideration, given that it couldn’t have been a totally sterile urine catch.Hopefully they will have some idea, like, “it’s normal to see some of this bacteria in a sample from home, but this other bacteria isn’t likely from the litter box, so we’ll treat that.” Does this make sense??

[LBJ10]

Good point MB, it does depend on how the sample was collected.

[Avantika]

I am pretty sure the sample I collected wasn’t sterile. I will definitely tell the vet the same. The idea of taking a sample through a syringe sounds painful. It has a lot of chances of injury considering how defensive bunnies are. How many of you had that procedure done to your bunnies ?

I thoroughly cleaned – with white vinegar and then an antiseptic liquid, and dried the litter box. Fed some water to Moshu through dropper so that she goes and pee. And through a dropper collected it in the sample box. She also pooped along with the pee, but I collected the urine within a minute of her doing the job. I wish there was some other way. *sigh*

How do you guys collect urine sample ? I also tried collecting it directly in a clean box instead of her litter box but I guess she was developed a fondness for her litter box and was adamant about peeing there only.

I’m getting the reports tomorrow on my way home.

[Bam]

It may be that the sample was contaminated by the vinegar etc. This would not be good since vinegar kills bacteria.

And it is inevitable that some bacteria contaminates a urin sample taken in the traditional way (ie by the person or animal peeing). You can give people instructions on how to minimize the contamination, this is of course not possible with a bunny. With a dog you can take a urine sample with a (preferably stainless steel) soup ladle. again not possible with a bunny.

They can see if there are bacteria that should definitely not be in a urine-sample. But often UTIs are due to fecal bacteria entering the urinary tract, and that would of course not be possible to distinguish from poop-bacteria from poop.

I hope LBJ comes in soon because she’s a degree in biology.

I’m impressed that you managed to get a sample from her at all. I’m not sure my buns would’ve peed in an empty, newly-cleaned litter-box. Actually I’m rather sure they wouldn’t.

[LBJ10]

They can take a sample using a needle, but they can also forcibly empty the bladder by squeezing their abdomen. I would think that that would get a fairly good sample that way. Here in the US, a lot of people use a clean litter box with a litter screen to collect the sample. Since this is a human lab and not an animal lab, they may not be used to all of the possibilities for contamination.

I guess you’ll have to wait and see what comes back. Although I would think that they would still look for white blood cells in the urine and they could then put two and two together. If there is bacteria present (more than what would be expected from contamination) and white blood cells, then they would probably be more confident in the diagnosis.

[Avantika]

     

 

So according to the reports, she doesnt have UTI.

@BAM : I sighed when I read this : “It may be that the sample was contaminated by the vinegar etc. This would not be good since vinegar kills bacteria.” This would be so bad. I cleaned it with vinegar so that the prior bacteria on the box doesnt change the results.

But wait, let me tell you how I cleaned it. I first sprayed a good amount of white vinegar in the box, let it sit in it for 15-20 minutes, then thoroughly washed it with an antiseptic liquid, then dried it with clean napkins. Only after this, Moshu went to pee in it and I collected the sample.

Please tell me the sample wasnt contaminated by the vinegar.

 

[Avantika]

Double post, but I am in a hurry.

Also, is it possible that the sample be sterile after 48 hours, as said in the report, despite that fact that she pooped along with it and the poops must have stayed for some less-than-one-minute before I collected the sample ?

Should I doubt the accuracy of this report ?

[Megabunny]

I really don’t know what to think about this. Isn’t there some expert, not on BB but somewhere out there who might be a good contact? You might want to ask on the Lounge or somewhere.
Also, my vet claims rabbits almost never get UTI’s. He seems really smart and only does exotics, so I don’tknow

Oh, and I wonder if the sample really would have been affected, given that the pan had been dried. I could see it disinfecting the actual germs in there, but I don’t know how well that would kill bacteria that followed. (Shrug…cuz I don’t know) I’d be interested to see what LBJ thinks of my theory, though

[LBJ10]

Hmm, I’m not sure how effective vinegar is after it has dried. I do know that some chemical disinfectants can continue to kill bacteria for some time after the surface is visibly dry. How soon did she pee in there? If some time had lapsed, then I can’t imagine it affected the sample.

It sounds like they incubated it for 48 hours and nothing grew.

[Avantika]

@Megabunny : But I have come across a lot of posts on BB about UTIs. I always thought its pretty common. Moshu too had one. She got that because she wasnt properly litter trained.

@LBJ10 : After I pat it dry, I think she did her business some good 15-20 minutes later. Also, this white vinegar was a solution, not complete white vinegar and I made this solution in october 2014. About 6 months back.

[LBJ10]

I don’t know for sure, but that sounds like it wouldn’t have affected anything.
So they didn’t do anything except try to grow something? They didn’t look for anything else, like white blood cells?

[Avantika]

I thought that was including in the urine culture. Pus cells and stuff. I’ll call and ask them.

[Avantika]

I called them up and asked. Rs.200 and my efforts in collecting the sample gone waste. *sigh* They said the white pus cells and albumin count, etc. would be included in the urinalysis.
Just wondering. Since the culture report shows ‘no organism’, would pus cells be even present ?

[Bam]

I suppose by “pus-cells” you mean white blooc cells. If they are over a certain level, they are a sign of an ongoing infection, unspecified as to causative bacteria. They mean the immune-system is activated by sth and the body is trying to fight this sth off.

“No organism” doesn’t mean sterile, it just means nothing grew.

I don’t know if residual vinegar on a perfectly dried plastic surface could have any effect at all. I didn’t mean to make you worried!!

TLDR: If the result is elevated white blood cells, you know there’s an infection. Your vet will know what bacteria are most likely to be the culprits and can choose a suitable ab. If that ab doesn’t cure her, there are other abs to try.

I don’t know if UTIs are common among rabbits or not. You certainly read a lot about rabbits with UTIs.

[Avantika]

That means I will have to get a urinalysis done. Thats not a problem. I will go for it. The problem is only collection of sample once again. I wish the coming days were not so hectic. But I will definitely get it done.

One last question. I do have some 10-20 doses of enrofloxacin with myself. If the white blood cells are elevated, can I give her the antibiotic myself ? I know for a fact that the vet will prescribe her enrofloxacin. Thats the most basic vet ab available here. Give her for 14 days and then again get a urinalysis done ?
Should I go ahead with this ?

Also, I have a yeast supplement. Forgive me for my bad biology knowledge, but will yeast supplement prove to be bad when she has/is recovering from UTI ?
She was given this supplement by a vet long time back when she was turning weak and not eating well (that was also due to UTI, just that the vet couldnt diagnose it -__- ) ?

We dont get any animal probiotic supplement here like Benebac…so, can I give her that to keep her feeling healthy, since antibiotic makes one feel weak ?

Here it is :  http://www.bio-strath.ch/en/products/animals/anima-strath

[Bam]

I’m puzzled now. Why do you have to have urinalysis done? This was a urinalysis wasn’t it? If there is an elevated white bc count, then that is the sign of infection.

Well, as you know we can’t give veterinary advice here on BB because we’re not vets. You could perhaps call your vet and ask?

Recurring UTIs doesn’t necessarily mean that the ab you’ve treated her with before is inefficent against the bacteria, it may mean that she is prone to UTIs – and that may have some physiological or anatomical reason.The body doesn’t develop resistance to bacteria like it can do to viruses. It’s possible to get reinfected again and again once the abs sre out of the system. In people cranberry juice (unsweetened) is often recommended for those that are prone to UTIs, it has some component that seems to repel the bacteria that want to climb up the urinary tract.

The yeast supplement sounds good to me, there is sth like it in Sweden that’s recommended for bunnies with stomach issues/ under treatment with abs etc.

I hope I’m not confusing you with a lot of details, but you seem like a clever and educated person. =)

I

[Avantika]

What I got done was a urine culture. I posted a picture of it on Page 1 of this thread. That did not include an analysis of white blood cells. I thought they would do but did not. I called the path lab from where I got this done – they said, the white blood cell analysis would be done as a part of urine analysis, not culture. The analysis is 50 % cheaper than the culture and takes less time – just a few hours, as the person with the path lab said. That person even told me to get a urine analysis done first, and if needed, then culture. But I read somewhere that culture is more detailed than a urinalysis. So I prefered that. I last studied biology some 6 years back, I just went ahead with what I read. =(

Nah, you are not confusing me. I’d like any helpful input.

[Bam]

Oh, I see now. Took me while though =/

Although I can’t imagine hpow a culture would be quicker and cheaper. What bacteria would grow in a few hours? I know nowadays it’s possible to DNA- sequence bacteria and type them, which is an extremely accurate method since it doesn’t rely on the bacteria’s ability to grow in an artificial medium, but I imagine it would still be rather expensive. It’s not in common use here yet, as far as I’ve heard. Maybe LBJ can explain this. I hope she will because it’s very interesting.

Darling little Moshu, I hope she will be fine soon either way you go. Often doctors treat people empirically after a clinical diagnosis. Does she display clinical symptoms of a UTI? (Perhaps you’ve written that elsewhere and I’ve missed it =/)

[Megabunny]

I know there is a lot of talk about UTI on here, so I don’t know exactly what my vet meant, but he said something to the effect that 95% are not (true?) UTI’s.

HOWEVER  I’m going to the vet today with Gus for a follow-up on his ears. I will bring what I can get from your thread with me and see if I can get any input. I’d feel funny grilling the vet too long, but maybe if I talk with the tech, if she can’t answer, she will open up the conversation with the vet.

I would like to go back to the beginning on all this. I looked at your other threads a bit and am not sure… I see she isn’t spayed, which I understand if you are in a country that doesn’t deal with pet rabbits much. I’m just wondering why you think she even has an infection. I know you went through that concern about things not looking right on her privates, but did that clear up? Is it just that she isn’t litter trained? I imagine that would be hormonal versus something physical. Maybe someone else here knows these answers. I’m leaving soon for the vet, so I probably won’t get more answers to this that soon, but I’ll check. At least I could talk with them a bit while I’m there, then maybe I can follow up on the phone.

I’ll let you know what I can find out, if anything.

[Megabunny]

I guess Bam and I were typing at the same time.
I would say Avantika had a culture and sensitivity done, and that takes the 48+ hours, checking for bacterial growth.
Now she is thinking of having a urinalysis done, where they spin down the urine to look for the crystals and blood cells, skin cells. This takes more like 10 minutes, with about 5 minutes of that being the time in the centrifuge spinning. They just say a few hours so THEY have time to do it in their schedule.
And yes, I was wondering if she could simply get more meds like in humans with a history of this, though sounds like she has some, though I’m guessing not enough to get her through the full two weeks, but at least what I used to do when I got quite a few of them was to call the doctor and say, “Oh, I had some antibiotics left over from before and it’s improved on them. Could I just get more to get me through the whole treatment?” They’d give me more, I’d save a couple of doses worth and do the same thing the next time. I think they caught on after awhile, but it was nice while it worked ha ha

[Bam]

I get eveything wrong today =/ Thanks Megabunny! I have a bad cold.

[Megabunny]

Oh gosh. You’re fine. I’ve just done that stuff before…and I’m not sick…knock wood.
I really didn’t learn too much at the vet’s as I chickened out asking him. I just am always afraid of overstepping and since it wasn’t related to my pet…
Well, I spoke with the tech (decided I could waste her time…how bad is that?) and basically realized I didn’t know exactly what I WAS trying to ask. The tech said when they run into a rabbit with urinary trouble, UTI’s are not their first thought, as there are so MANY issues they can get with their bladders.I guess that’s why I’m hoping for a bit of clarification on the reason Avantika is thinking it’s even an infection or how they decided the last time that that was the problem. Maybe it said it somewhere that I haven’t read.
Feel better, Bam. My daughter texted me from college and has a bad cold and said she’s sure it’s the end though her roommate assures her it’s not LOL. She asked if I would come and do her laundry and make her poached eggs. I said to hold on, I’d be right there (it’s a 15 hour car trip ha ha)

[LBJ10]

Megabunny is correct. A culture takes longer because they are waiting to see if anything grows. They have to grow a decent amount of bacteria in order to figure out what type it is, etc. If nothing grows, then it is assumed that no bacteria was present in the sample. Urinalysis doesn’t take long at all because they are simply looking for white blood cells, crystals, etc.

Urinalysis would only indicate that an infection exists somewhere. It does not reveal what type of bacteria it is. That’s why vets will generally prescribe a broad spectrum antibiotic and hope it works. If it doesn’t, then they might order a culture done at that time. But a broad spectrum antibiotic usually takes care of the problem.

[Bam]

How is Moshu is doing?

[Author]

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