New home and litter training questions. Updated AGAIN with MORE pictures

[Lindsay0208]

Hello again everyone.

So I need to update my girls cage.  I have been using an extra large dog crate and I hate it. 1. Its not big enough for my buns 2. BC there is no rim around outside all the poop that is not in litter box (they are still pooping in cage a lot) gets all over the carpet in the bedroom.  I was thinking of getting a hutch and using it in my kitchen.  I have been keeping them in our school room (we home school) but, until they are better at pottying in their box ALL OR MOST of the time I thing the floor in kitchen/dining room (vinyl) will work better.  Since we have more space in this area I can also add our Xpen to outside for some playtime.  

Ok so my next question is, I understand they won’t be fully able to potty train until they are spayed but, shouldn’t it be getting better.  Don’t get me wrong they poop and pee A LOT in their box but, they also still poop everywhere else too.  They also have about  1 pee accident outside of their cage a day.  I have tried several litter boxes they don’t like to sit on the litter.  When I put a standard littter box with ANY litter they refuse to use it.  I pulled out my pigs old breeze litter box and didn’t put pellets in it, they liked it but it got NASTY.  I now have a corner screen covered litter box they like pretty good but, its not going to be big enough to last ( they both like to get in in at the same time as I keep their hay rack on side of it).  I really want the one on this site but, they aren’t available for now.  What else can I do ( I have read all the articles) to help promote good potty habits?  

Any additional thoughts or idea for housing ( I really don’t care for the cubes bc poop would get everywhere with them too).  Also, any of you with dogs, how did your dog respond to buns?  When I bring the girls out to watch a movie the sit on my lap and I put towels on couch he does really good.  He is very gentle and loving and generally interested in them without ANY attitude.  But, I am worried to let them on floor as I am worried he may think they are toys.  He is a very loving dog, has never shown an ounce of aggression to anything, but I always wonder as dogs are natural predators to rabbits.  Thanks.

[Megabunny]

Well, my thinking is that you’re going through a lot of trouble that can be fixed with spaying. Rabbits just want to mark and pooping is marking. Or put them somewhere with linoleum so you can clean easier. I can’t imagine unneutered rabbits on good carpeting. Do you put their hay in the box to encourage them to poop there? I know you said they use it a lot, but just another thought.

As far as the dog… I would initially keep him on a leash while the bunny runs to see how he responds. You don’t want a free for all with everyone scrambling to catch the dog if it came to that. My dog is highly aggressive toward other people’ dogs and barks at most anything with fur, feathers…the list goes on and on…except the rabbit. He learned that any rabbits in the house are part of the family and have to be treated as such. I assure you this did not come as any result to my training. He just figured it out. People typically seem to find the rabbit eventually bosses the dogs around, actually.

[Lindsay0208]

Oh they will be spayed as soon as they are big enough! No question about that, I want my girls to live long happy lives. Yes their hay is on the wall beside the litter box. They do use the litter box a lot, I have to change it out at least every other day if not every day sometimes. They just go elsewhere too. Since I got this new corner box they have not had a pee accident so that is good.
I have narrowed the hutches down to 2. Of course I want the bigger one, but I am not sure it will fit great in our kitchen. But, ultimately I just want my buns to be happy. I also want to figure out a way to block off my dining/kitchen so they can roam that area freely. The only problem is our kitchen/dining/living room are all 1 giant room with just a bar and counter separating . It is very open so I am not sure how to do that yet. Thoughts on either? Thanks.
This is bigger one
http://www.amazon.com/Rabbit-Hutch-with-Attic-XL/dp/B003TOQ1XO/ref=sr_1_14?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1415592934&sr=1-14&keywords=trixie+rabbit+hutch
This is the one that would fit best.
http://www.amazon.com/Rabbit-Hutch-with-Attic-L/dp/B00110WU2E/ref=sr_1_15?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1415592934&sr=1-15&keywords=trixie+rabbit+hutch

[MoveDiagonally]

I agree with spaying helping litter box habits.

Unfortunately, neither of those hutches are big enough for two bunnies. For two you want about 4ft X 4ft or 16 sq ft. Most fully extended X-Pens would fit the bill. Is that an option?

[Megabunny]

Yes, sorry, I did read carefully and figured you had spaying on your agenda. I looked at pre-made cages at one point and had my choices down to those cages as well. I do love the looks of them on line, but when you see them in person they are cheap and small and not worth the money, which I assure you you’re going to need for their spaying. Also, well, I’m no interior decorator, but I’m just feeling like something like that is going to look like heck in the main part of your house. The bottom of that is not on wire (which, of course, is good) so you’re going to have the same issues w/ poop rolling out as with any other cage. I actually forget about the X pens because I’m so addicted to the nic pens. They (nic) are fun, easy and you can be creative. Again, I’m about as uncreative as they get, but I love making nic pens. Even a neutered bun is going to have its attitude rear up periodically and you’ll see them poop bunches outside their cage periodically. Some rabbits make you keep some of the old litter (ew) in the nice, freshly cleaned litter box or the rabbits refuse to use the fresh one.
Anyway, I’m digressing.
If you really want one of those in your house and you can build it out w/ an X pen or something, go for it. But I’d read the reviews and maybe even look at the ones at a Tractor Supply store or something like that. Turned me off. Nothing is going to fix the rolling around poops in the bottom of the pen except a wire bottom, which, of course, is not what you should have.
Also, as a thought for a hidey house for them, of course, you can use cardboard boxes, or what I did was contact the local High School and they built me a really nice one out of pine scraps they had. If you send in some snacks or pizza they will be REALLY happy to do it.

[Lindsay0208]

Ok so new twist in my plan. Hubby said no to bunnies being in kitchen. He said he did not like the idea of any litter box near where we prepare or eat food (he is kind of crazy about cleanliness, so I should have thought of that). He did say that once they are spayed he will happily move them to the living room (part vinyl, part carpet) and for now he will build me a platform with vinyl to put down in the room so that they can have extra play room (yes he is that anal he would rather build me a platform than allow them in our kitchen). He also said he would make me a NIC condo that had floors with a border around them to help with the poop. He is military so he has today and tomorrow off. We will be hopefully knocking it out now. I was thinking of 5’X2′ or 5’x3′ with 3 levels. Would that be big enough? If not what size would you recommend? Remember I am not planning on them staying in their cage all the time (that is inhumane). Once they can be spayed and get good and potty trained we will either move them to living room where they will have full reign or keep them in school room and let them have free reign there. I do have an X pen, and I was using that, it just takes up so much floor space out all the time. I do pull it out during the days and put it in our living room so they can be out here with us (without worrying about them getting into trouble (I haven’t bunny proofed this area). Thanks for all the help, yeah I went and looked at a smaller version( just to look at quality) at a local feed store and it did look cheap.

ETA:  My hubby is not against bunnies be out in our kitchen (once they are potty trained) just the litter box and house.  He said I can keep a spare litter box under a table in our living room once they are potty trained for them to play out here.  

[Megabunny]

Aww Give that man a big hug…from you, not me! He sounds wonderful. The cage sounds big enough to me, but that’s not something I’m a good resource for, but with the multiple levels, I think that’s plenty. And I agree with hubby. I’m surprised at MYSELF for not picking up on that. Definitely would be a turn off to have it in the kitchen, though maybe it depends on your kitchen size. ANYWAY, I’m confused about him building you a platform for the vinyl flooring, but that’s probably the military in him. (I just moved to SC and there are a lot of military types around here haha). I’m getting old and lazy. I just lay the vinyl on the carpet and it’s been very protective of carpeting. But if a platform makes him happy, then have at it!! You will have to post pics. Have fun!

[Megabunny]

Aww Give that man a big hug…from you, not me! He sounds wonderful. The cage sounds big enough to me, but that’s not something I’m a good resource for, but with the multiple levels, I think that’s plenty. And I agree with hubby. I’m surprised at MYSELF for not picking up on that. Definitely would be a turn off to have it in the kitchen, though maybe it depends on your kitchen size. ANYWAY, I’m confused about him building you a platform for the vinyl flooring, but that’s probably the military in him. (I just moved to SC and there are a lot of military types around here haha). I’m getting old and lazy. I just lay the vinyl on the carpet and it’s been very protective of carpeting. But if a platform makes him happy, then have at it!! You will have to post pics. Have fun!

[Lindsay0208]

I think what he meant was just a full piece of plywood with the vinyl on top with trim around it, but I think just putting the vinyl down makes more since, especially since we may have to move and that way everything is more portable. Now that he has got into building mode he now just wants to build the whole thing with wood and hardwear cloth. I am not sure. I guess we will go price both and see how that goes. Do you think the 5×2 would work or should I bump up to 5×3? If I go 5×3 then I have to get more plywood because it won’t all be able to be cut from 1 piece. If I did the 5×2 the 3rd level would only be 4×2 so that would be 28 sqft of space. I am hoping that will be enough for my girls, and like I said once they are potty trained will get free rain of at least 1 room. Until then they will their pen and extra Xpen space with vinyl underneath. This is a rental so I can not risk them peeing everywhere in the room until they are potty trained.

[Megabunny]

Boy, I wish MD or someone else would jump on here. I don’t want to be the deciding factor in size of cage. I am thinking if that’s what you have supplies and room for, and it’s to get you through for now, it sounds fine. I just know how hard husbands work on these cages they set their minds on. I think it sounds fine, really. Especially with them getting out to exercise and having multiple levels. But I’m just flying by the seat of my pants here on this opinion.

[JackRabbit]

From what I’ve read on here, levels don’t count as part of the min floor space.

[Megabunny]

Oh, well, thanks JR LOL

[Lindsay0208]

So even though they will be out most of the time in a couple months and at least 4-5 hrs a day until then a 5’x2 would not be big enough? What would be a good size. I could probably do a 5.5 x 3′ but if I go much bigger that that the we wont have much room left in the room to do school. I want to do whats best, and I want something that will last. I don’t want to have to redo it again in 6 month. I have looked at all the pics on here and lots of people have cages smaller than 5×2. I am not trying to be snarky, I just want whats best for my girls.

[Megabunny]

That sounds good.. They’ll be out running around in no time

[Megabunny]

I told my husband about your husband getting really into the cage building and deciding to go all out with wood and everything. He feels the pain and knows how much trouble that can get a guy into ha ha. He may regret it along the way, but I bet it will be amazing!

[Lindsay0208]

Ok so after spending all day looking at materials and not really liking how I thought it would turn out, and wondering if I could do better for my girls, we decided to go in a completely different direction. My hubby is helping me re do our school room take some of the things we don’t use for school ie the girls play kitchen will be going in our kitchen, and we are going to use our 4×4 Xpen but he is going to build a base for it (with trim) and we are even thinking of putting a 2×4 balcony with a ramp. Hubby got all into it and found these really cool 5′ panels(metal like xpen just taller) that even has a door I walk into to eventually make them a bunny palace :-). The panels will be 4×4 too so until we have the xtra money for the panels we will make the Xpen work. How high can bunnies jump? I don’t want to put a top on Xpen but wanted them to have 2nd floor so if my x pen is 30″ tall that would make the 2nd level 15″ up is that enough(for both height for them and un-jump-able)? Also, both my girls are Holland lops, if that helps.
BTW we went to Target, Kmart, Walmart and BedBathbeyond and could not find the cubes ANYWHERE. I have found them online but none say the grid height width so was hesitant to want to get them.

[Megabunny]

You’re smart to take your time on the cage and be sure you get it the closest to what you want. Somehow I thought you had miraculously found Nic cubes. They aren’t available anymore unless you order them. I ordered them through WalMart and had them shipped to the store so I didn’t have to pay shipping. Obviously that doesn’t help if you want to start right away. Of course, being in a new city I didn’t know, I sent them to the wrong WalMart, but it wasn’t terribly far away! Oh, and they’re 14(or 14.5) inches square

Anyway, I have wondered the same as you about them jumping. My guy is much bigger than your kiddos.
Gus is a 12 pound fellow. I built him a Nic enclosure that is 2 Nic panels high (~28 in). Again, he is bred to be big so probably isn’t as agile as a smaller breed. He doesn’t jump over the 2 panel height, and I took a chance and built a ledge 1/2 way up w/o a top and despite the drop on the other side, he did get out, so I did take more panels and put a ceiling over the ledge. Sorry I can’t remember the recommended height for keeping jumpers in. I think its close to 40 inches, but you may be able to Google that and will likely be redirected to a thread on this forum with the answer. Anyway, I don’t know if this helps but it’s all I’ve got. I basically don’t know if rabbits can understand a bigger drop down on the other side, and I think that’s what you’re trying to figure out. But I’m guessing they don’t understand that.

[JackRabbit]

Don’t underestimate how high your bunny can jump. One of my bunnies can clear a baby gate with no effort (I can barely just straddle the gate to step over it). While my holland lops aren’t generally jumpers, Moshi has a fascination with shiny door knobs and can jump within a few inches of grabbing one (no idea what he thinks he’ll do if he ever reaches it). My lops live in an area surrounded by three 48″ tall xpens. I went with the tallest in case we ever get jumper Kieko bonded with them. Most people seem to go with 36 or 42 inch xpens, and 48 inch if they want to play it super safe. Before you do a ledge, search on here for sideways E, Beka posted pics of hers along with dimensions, and I copied her design and posted pics in the October picture thread (that or September). It’s 13 inches tall with part open underneath and part built-in hidey house. I attached a ramp that I had from Lieth Petwerks since my bunnies are fairly small. Moshi jumps up on it but uses the ramp to get down, and Marlee only uses the ramp. It works great with an xpen.

BTW, you can always attach a bedsheet or similar over part of the xpen where you have a ledge or sideways E to make a “roof” over that part to discourage jumping out.

[Lindsay0208]

Thank you. Yes, I looked it up last night and I don’t think I will chance not having a roof of some kind. The reason it would be easy to add is, when we first got the buns, hubby started building a cage 4×2, he finished the floor before I told him it wouldn’t work(to small) and I would let him know what I wanted to do. So the ledge is technically made. We may wait to add it, until we can get the panels(hoping they will go on sale) or I may put the sheet or fabric over it, not sure yet.
So hubby measured (to be sure) the panels and they will be the exact size as the xpen, once set up (just much taller). So we will be able to use the base he is making today and anything else. My question is, instead of making full size stories, we wanted to do different levels of ledges (probably 4×2 and 2×2). Will my buns be ok and know not to jump off the ledge to get down or is that a bad idea? If so I could stick to 4×2 ledges that way if they do jump it would just be to level below. I have seen some super tall NIC condos but they usually have full levels. Will update with some pics once we get it put together.

[Megabunny]

Not sure sorry

[Lindsay0208]

So here is what we got done today.  There is vinyl tiles underneath but, they were slipping so much I put some towels down.  I know that fleece is safe, is there anything else I can put down to help with traction?  

[Megabunny]

Oh I’m so jealous! I want one of those platforms to keep litter, pellets and poops confined. But my dog wouldn’t like that. What would he nibble on then?
That looks so excellent!
I’ve always use carpet swatches, myself, duct taped to the vinyl (though I think most people like velcro) Then they can be pulled up and scrubbed and hosed off if need be. Hang ’em on a fence for a day and you’re good to go.
One person recently said their rabbit almost died from eating the carpet in their cage and getting blocked, but I don’t think that’s all that common, especially given all the carpeted floors people have in their homes. There are other non-skid surfaces people can buy, but they don’t absorb water/urine puddles and then the buns are running through the mess, so I vote for carpet. Used it for years and many bunnies with no problem.

[Lindsay0208]

I will have to think about carpet. I have caught Anna chewing on carpet in the bedroom and had to get her one of those seagrass mats for that spot (only spot she does it) I didn’t realize how much they would slip and slide on the vinyl tiles. After I put the towels down they love their new space.

[Megabunny]

So fun to put buns in their new homes, isn’t it?

[Lindsay0208]

Oh yes, they were a little mad at me, bc to get their new home set up I had to take apart their old one and had to put them in a tote with pine pellets for about an hour. This morning i went to clean out their cage and all the towels were bunched up (with poop all in them) and they were hopping just fine on the vinyl. Is it ok just to leave it bare, if they are not sliding anymore? i would make it much easier to clean (just sweep up stray poop) then with carpet or towels down. I think Elsa had a pee accident beside the littter box. There was a little this morning and as I was cleaning it up she came right to that spot and peed. I hope this doesn’t keep happening. They tend to do pretty well about pee.

[Megabunny]

LOL Yup Gus goes and pees in the litter box spot, too,, when I have it out to clean. Not all the time though. I don’t know about the bare floor. I mean, I guess it’s OK, but always felt better with a couple of carpets to break up the vinyl. It’s not solid carpets. Just a couple of areas. Rabbits do seem to want to mark their new areas, but I doubt it will last. At least I hope not!

[Lindsay0208]

I think that makes sense. I will try to pick up a rug or 2 to break up vinyl. That way i can just pick up rug let poop fall to floor then sweep. I will be so happy once I can get them spayed and get their pooping under control. I don’t care if its an occasional issue, but they poop like crazy. I don’t like there pen full of poop so i am constantly cleaning. These girls will be my last baby bunnies. I will ALWAYS get pre spayed/neutered buns from here on out. The good thing about buns is even as adults, I think they are just as cute as when they are babies (only animal I can think of that is the case with). 🙂

[Megabunny]

Agreed!!

[Beka27]

That looks great! Good job!

[Little Lion Head]

oooh I like the platform too! keep the mess inside! great idea!

[Lindsay0208]

Well Elsa and Anna LOVE their new home.  They just play and eat and have even been much more outgoing.  It only took me about 5 min to clean the poop fest this morning.  I just lifted rug up then swept the floor.  They love it and I love it.  Next I thing I will add the 2×4 balcony and add some sort of roof to keep them from jumping.  

[Megabunny]

Oh how cute is that??? BTW, I dump the poop into the litter box, then sprinkle litter over it. Other times I chase it around with paper towels, which is so insanely wasteful, I know. So glad they’re enjoying their home. What adorable little girls!!

[JackRabbit]

Chase the poop around with paper towels. That is so funny and such an absolutely accurate description!

I’m going to make a mental note of that so that I have something to add next time folks at work are talking about weekend plans. Instead of saying “same old same old” I can say I’m going to chase bunny poop around with paper towels! If I’m going to have the nickname “crazy bunny lady”, I should at least be able to earn it!

[Megabunny]

Yeah, that should definitely solidify your title…but can anyone think of a better subject to be known for???

[JackRabbit]

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