Bonding Alfie and Lily – Bonded!

[BubbaBunnies]

Hi all!

I had posted a couple days ago about the troubles I was having in bonding my pair, and it was suggested to me to start a thread to keep note of any progress and get input.  So here is my old post with my background story (https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/aft/134349/Default.aspx).

Before the fight (when introduced on non neutral territory) this is what I had going with the buns (miss those days):

Alfie (male neutered 1yr): grey and white

Lily (female spayed 2.5 yrs): albino

The same day as the fight i had them in the bathtub just to end on a good note, which happened after some scuffling:

After this they had 4 days to chill, on the last day I moved them to separate rooms due to fighting through the bars.

Since then I have had 5 daily bonding sessions in a different bathtub.  I’ll post those as replies below.  

Welcome to any suggestion or words of encouragement .

[BubbaBunnies]

Day 1 restarting bonding:

I brought them both into the other bathtub in our house and opted for no blanket or mat to prohibit any fighting as best I can.  They were surprisingly well behaved, probably due to the lack of footing and new smells etc.

There was grooming from both parties but overall was wonderfully uneventful!

They were in there for 30 minutes, got a treat and went back to their separate rooms.  

[BubbaBunnies]

Day 2:

I chose to put a mat down just to test the waters since they were so great the day before. Once they started grooming i gave them some food in separate bowls as it was their dinner time, Lily ate while Alfie cuddled beside her and eventually burrowed right underneath her (pictures bellow). This went great for the first half and then some bum nipping led to some squabbles (they both lean into each other so much at times that I can never tell who started it by nipping who… but i later figure it out!).

I pulled them apart each time till breathing calmed down and eventually things settled and they were grooming again so I settled for that and ended with a treat.

Since i had to wait for them to show some positive behaviour they were in there for about 40 minutes.

Here are some pics from the beginning of the session:

[BubbaBunnies]

Day 3:

This day I went back to no mat or towel.  Things went great, grooming and even eating some hay together, which i put down after about 15 minutes of good behaviour.  No squabbles so they were kept in there for ~45 minutes before they got treats and that was that.  Pretty much uneventful, which is always great sometimes.  

Here are some pics: 

They sat like this for a good 10 minutes when they first got in there haha

[BubbaBunnies]

Day 4:

Again, no mat/towel.  They started out fantastically with grooming, but we ran into some trouble when Alfie started nipping at Lily’s bum.  She doesn’t fight back right away and stands on her hind legs staring at me to let her out.  But there is only so much a girl can take before she nipped back… which led to a circle chase.  It was my first time witnessing the culprit in the act.  So I quickly caught on to Alfies body language when he was about to take a nip and was able to firmly say NO and block his path with a fitted hand.  At one point he lunged and audibly snapped down at her face but luckily Lily moved in time.   There were a couple squabbles (as evident by the fur in the tub in the pic bellow).  But once I got better and reading Alfie I was able to staunch his attacks and they were able to end with some grooming and treats.

Before the bum nips…

Towards the end of the session, both looking rather defeated:

[BubbaBunnies]

Day 5:

Today we started off with no mat.  Now that I know who the culprit is I was able to stop Alfie from initiating any aggressiveness.  There was very little grooming in the beginning and just sitting and cuddling to start.  Although I was able to stop all of Alfies undesirable advances he still tried, and kept an eye on me to see when he could make a move that little rascal.  

Once Alfie stopped his attempts at nipping Lily’s bum I introduced a small mat which Lily took over almost immediately.  Grooming increased from there.  Including the both of them grooming themselves at the same time.  Some treats and they were done the session.  I had them in there for 50 minutes since they were doing so well.

How they started out:

Grooming themselves 

[BubbaBunnies]

Day 6: 

So day 6 was a good day for the buns!  In the bathtub again.  Was able to stop Alfie’s attempts to nip at Lily before they happened.  Grooming ensued from both sides as per usual as well as some cuddling as they seemed a little more scared being in the bathtub then normal.  It was only a 30 minute date due to me being wiped out from a migraine earlier in the day and having to go to work.  Again for this reason I feel i may have missed some of the events of the day but overall I remember it going smoothly.

Here are some pics of them being cute:

Alfie was scared and trying to hide behind Lily… I think both Lily and I were afraid he was going to take the  opportunity to get some bun nipping in but thankfully not!

If only it was always like this!

[BubbaBunnies]

Day 7: 

So it has officially been a week of bonding these guys since the fight.  Day 7 (yesterday) wasn’t the best day, so I am going to be asking for some advice from your guys!  

Since they had been very good I placed them on a towel inside the bathtub.  They did the initial cuddle at the beginning and then Alfie went for some nips which I stopped so He got grumpy and they both resumed positions about 2 feet away form each other and sat there.  I know this is a good thing so i let them sit calculate each other from afar.  Then Alfie lunges in for a nip which I didn’t quite catch fast enough (not used to the towel giving him traction) and they had a small scuffle before i quickly split home up, held them down apart form each other and said NO! Lily always gets wide eyes and scared whenever a fight breaks out and Alfie just gets grumpy he can’t get away with it.  So when it happened again i took out the blanket.  Alfie tried again which i stopped.  A couple times Alfie went up to Lily asking to be groomed and she would get into defines mode (I think her trust in him is dwindling) and would box him, but a loud NO had them both sitting apart from each other.  About twice alfie successfully got some grooming form Lily (once she groomed him a bit too aggressively and he went to box her, which a NO stopped again). The last 5 mins of the 40 mins they were in there was them sitting apart with no approaching.  So they got treats beside each other before it was over.  

My questions… It seems that they are still trying to figure each other out but trust in each other seems to be going down, would a stress bonding session (box on the dryer) be a good idea to bring them together a bit before our bonding session today?  Should I maybe bond them for longer to let them get through a bit more each session?  Any suggestions are welcome!

And here is a pic from Yesterday (Alfie peed so the paper towel is to avoid it getting splashed everywhere.)

[MoveDiagonally]

Great pics and adorable bunnies!

Since they’re still developing trust and that’s one of the thing stress bonding is helpful with I don’t think it would hurt to give stress bonding a try. I might give each type of session a try.
– Stress bonding session only
– Longer normal session
– Hybrid stress bonding and then normal session

Seeing what works best for them will help keep them moving forward.  Best of Luck! Loving the thread.

[BubbaBunnies]

Thank you for the input MoveDiagonally!
I have excess time today so maybe i will try the stress and normal session today.
Also do you think I am stopping Alfie from nipping a the right time? Should i let them figure it out and just stop when a fight is about to occur? Even if I know that he will nip her till a fight breaks out?

Thanks!

[MoveDiagonally]

Right now, I think stopping the nipping is okay because it’s an escalating force. Being able to intervene with sounds/external stressors is better than having to physically separate them. I put some pennies in a can and taped up the end and would shake it. The sound would make them stop whatever they were doing. Lol. (If you try this don’t use a jar instead of a can, one member did and the pennies broke the jar O.o)

[BubbaBunnies]

Ok great, thanks.
Ya thats a good idea! As long as I catch them before they start fighting sound will stop them, so that might be a good idea. But once they start fighting banging huge pot doesn’t even waver their attention haha.

[BubbaBunnies]

Day 8:

This day I decided to do some stress bonding with a box on the drying machine.  This went well and they snuggle together, as well as shuffled around but no aggression, Alfie nipped lily a bit on the bum but not hard enough for there to be any reaction from here.

After about ten minutes I took them to their regular bathtub for a normal bonding session, which went quite well.  There was a slight bit of aggression form alfie in the normal bum nipping way but i ended it fast and there was a long amount of time in which they sat like statues away form each other…

Eventually Alfie approached Lily and she reluctantly groomed him and they did their regular groom battle which resulted in both of them being groomed a number of times.  So they got their treats and that was the end of the day.  They were in the tub for 40 minutes plus the 10 minutes on the dryer.

She gives me the  look a lot lol

And he’s always got the mischievous look 

[BubbaBunnies]

Day 9:

So yesterday I decided to mix it up a bit and move them to smaller yet less slippery neutral bonding area, my laundry room sink (big plastic square tub), as well as extend the date to be 2x the length (1.5 hours).  So i got them in and right off the bat Lily was having none of this and literally leapt/climbed up to me so i had to barricade the sides with an ironing board and laundry basket.  Of course Alfie had to prove his strength to his gf to be and attempted the same trick .

Once they got a bit more settled and the idea of escaping wasn’t at the forefront they started the grooming war and once the did i put some orchard hay in to kinda mix it up and since it was going to be longer then usual.  They groomed off and on and sat quietly by each other so i felt confident enough to put on a couple friends episodes to pass the time.  Overall the 1.5 hours seemed to make them a bit more comfortable with each other and I think i will continue this format of longer sessions in the sink, as I find not having the bottom as slippery, although doesn’t prohibit fighting, lets them relax a bit more.  

So there was lots of “mom can we go home now?!”:

and lots of this :

Sorry I am so bad at updating these on a daily basis.  I have yet to do a bonding session today but I will aim to have it up ASAP (mostly so i remember all the details lol)

[MoveDiagonally]

Seems like things are improving! Awesome. Keep up the good work.

[BubbaBunnies]

Thanks MoveDiagonally!

Day 10:

So yesterday the buns were in the same sink but I kept them in for 2 hours this time.  It was much of the same, going through their paces, with Alfie trying to get a reaction out of Lily by nipping her bum.  I stopped anything before it escalated to a full fight.  There were some moments when Alfie would approach Lily front on after and both would bet into position to box one another.  Once I stopped this form happening They eventually settled down and I only had to intervene a couple times throughout the bulk of the session.  One thing I noticed was Lily’s lack of fighting back, instead I found that she would cuddle behind Alfie right away once he attempted to nip her and that seemed to stop him and she would just sit there for a couple mins. 

There were a couple moments in which Alfie would brace himself against lily and lily would lean against him (bum to face) but one I stopped Alfies attempts to nip they would settle down just sitting beside each other like this:

They were both grooming each other throughout the time as well. And it was cute to see Alfie going to groom Lily after I stopped him form nipping her.

The more I see them together the more I am thinking that doing a good 24 hour session is all I need, as it seems they really need that time together, but I will continue on with these sessions until Alfie ceases his nipping war (and also until I have 24hrs to spare).

Side issue: What has also been happening is that Lily has not been letting me go near her because she expects me to pick her up and take her to her date sessions with Alfie.  She has always been a bit standoffish at times but usually only if I pet her where she doesn’t want to be petted, otherwise she would lie for hours for pets.  But lately once I have fed her and given her some attention in the morning, as soon as I get back form class/work whatever during the day, she wants me nowhere near her.  I started using gloves to pick her up as well just because she can get quite vicious and I don’t want her to think swatting and biting will stop me from picking her up.  Just thought I would add this, It is the bonding thread and not the behavioural thread I know but thought it wouldn’t hurt to add that detail.

[BubbaBunnies]

Day 11:

Oh dear, today was a rocky one.  Lily is becoming harder and harder to catch to carry to the tub for bonding with Alfie.  Once there today Alfie kept going at Lily and it got out of hand on one occasion and had to hold the two separated till the fumes died down.  It seems that Lily is getting rather angry about the bonding and is using grooming as a defence, overtime Alfie makes a move, whether it be to broom himself, ask for grooming or to lunge, she will lunge at him and lick him profusely. I think she is rather stressed with the situation of Alfies constant nipping and being picked up daily (she was a rescue and Im starting to think she had some trauma to do with being picked up).  They were in the tub for 1 hour, I was originally only going to do a 30 minute session as I started late, but I had to wait until there was a good time to end it.  There was lots of grooming by Lily but nothing by Alfie, which is weird because there is usually at least a little bit.

Im starting to think that they might do best with a power bonding session, just find 72 hours and but them in the Xpen in neutral for 24 then if that goes well move to semi neutral for 24 and then to their home together if that goes well and supervise for 24.  Because each session, no matter the length seems to be either at a stand still or regressing.  I think this is partially due to Lily’s stress about the whole ordeal, and they need a good chunk of time to figure each other out.  I was hoping to wait until they were able to lounge together before I tried this, but do you think that this might be a good option considering the circumstances? 

I know this case isn’t totally hopeless because I have heard of worse, i just feel I am not getting anywhere when they have the potential of being a good bonded pair.  The small dates just seem to cause more hostility from Alfie and more anxiety which leads to hostility from Lily.  If I were to go ahead with my above idea I would probably hold off on bonding tomorrow and have Friday to Monday Midday to dedicate to the buns (assuming they give me a break to get some studying done )

Here is a picture from today, which seems to reflect our recent sessions lol

[BubbaBunnies]

Day 12:
Today we did no bonding. Lily seemed to be very appreciative and spent every moment she could grooming me lol. Alfie got some more time to run around and be his mischievous self. Both of them being in different rooms of the house isn’t really allowing me time nor them space to really run around as they should, and considering that each session is like hitting a brick wall, tomorrow I am going to start power bonding them. I am going to first put them in one of those big blue recycling boxes with hay on the bottom until they both relax, then I will set up the x-pen for the rest of the day and over night. If all goes well, as I hope it does we will move the x-pen to my room as a semi neutral zone for 24 hrs and if all is well I will have them in their new home by Sunday morning with supervision for 24 hours… but i have learnt to never make expectations so that is more of my wish of it all to play out. Ill post an update at every stage.

[BubbaBunnies]

Day 13:
I have started marathon bonding at 10:30am this morning, so I have only had them together for 30 minutes but thought a quick update wouldn’t hurt. I have them in a blue recycling bin with hay at the bottom. A couple minutes in there was a tussle which I pulled apart since a broom seemed to not phase them. I let them relax before i let them go but they went right back at it so i picked up the bit and walked around and did some tight turns and walked up and down the stairs which stopped them immediately. I put them back down and they sat still for a bit before they got at it again so i did the same thing but a bit shorter, they stop immediately as the bin is picked up (thank goodness). Since i put it back down Alfie gave Lily a small grooming on her eye and Lily has been grooming Alfie on and off (everytime i sneeze or blow my nose she seems to take it as her sign to groom him, poor scared and unsure girl).

[BubbaBunnies]

Ok so we are 8 hours into marathon bonding and its been such a roller coaster my goodness!  They were doing great in the recycling bin, Alfie and Lily both grooming each other, Alfie did get carried away with grooming/nipping Lily’s bum which she just responded by jumping behind his bum to get away.

So after being in the bin for 7 hours (10:30am to 5:30 pm) we moved to this arrangement:

It started ok, Alfie took charge of the litter box right away which was a concern.  they groomed each other over the side of the litter pan.  Then Alfie started nipping at Lily’s bum which led to a scuffle that was stopped by the shaking of the pen.  Alfie would try to go “see” (nip Lily’s bum) every once in awhile and she would jump right over him into the litter box/rest of the pen, wherever he wasn’t.  I feel horrible for her, she is so not happy and he’s just being a big bully.  The last time he jumped to her she got o freaked out she wedged herself like this, he kept trying to go near her bum but i kept saying no so they stayed like this until a couple second ago:

Then Alfie just turned around to go sniff her bum and she jumped into the litter pan and thumped, he followed her and she jumped out but no before he got some of her fur.  I know they need to work this out, but does this sound normal?  It seems like he just want her attention but has a very bad way of showing it and she just wants him not to nip her bum.  Do you think they will be able to resolve this issue? I am going to keep them like this as planned for as long as it takes since they ant at each other all the time and it doesn’t get vicious.

My goodness they are a handful!

Currently it has been ~8 hours together.

EDIT:

OMG they groomed each other!!!! He was about to go for her bum but thought better of it!  Ooh they are grooming again… nope he went for her bum again and a mini chase ensued.  I guess progress will be slow. 

[MoveDiagonally]

It sounds normal to me so far! It sounds like they’re starting to figure it all out. This is exciting!

I’m sorry I don’t have much advice to give you. You’re doing so well!

[BubbaBunnies]

Oh good to hear!  They are definitely figuring each other out but they are progressing so fast!

Lily lay in the litter box for a good 2+ hours and didn’t move even when Alfie approaches and groomed her excessively and ate beside her.  He would leave again and come back occasionally told the same thing, Lily just flattens herself when he approaches her.  I put some food in front of Lily and she ate it.  Alfie even went to hump her and she didn’t move, i only let him for 5 seconds each time and he actually would stop on his own to groom her and she would just lie there.  Alfie also did some flopping!!!

Sorry for the blurry pics, took them fast to try and capture the moment before they moved lol.  I took videos too but too lazy to upload them

About 5 minutes ago Lily decided to get up and ran around jumping over Alfie a couple times and now she is settled eating in the litter box and he is eating pellets, both seem quite relaxed!!! Its been 13 hours!

[BubbaBunnies]

24 hours!
Survived the night with no fights! A bit of mini chases when Alfie would go near Lily’s hind end but he didn’t pursue her when she ran away (so I got a full nights sleep!). Lily seems to have taken over the dominance position (where I thought she belonged anyhow). I am confident to leave the room for a couple mins (within earshot) considering they survived the night and they both seemed to have figured each other out enough that they don’t need to fight! Im going to keep them in neutral territory until there is less reaction when the other approaches and then move on to semi neutral territory hopefully by this afternoon.

As for semi neutral, They have lived together in separate cages in my room (basement apartment), so if I were to put the X-pen in there, farthest point away from their future cage in an area where it is just tile so they only occasionally went there (except I will put tarp down for the x-pen), should that be good?

[BubbaBunnies]

28 hours! And I have been moved them to semi neutral territory, in sight of their to-be home and they are behaving just as wonderfully as in the neutral territory. Still a bit unsure at times when approaching each other, but no chasing, biting or anything. Just A LOT of grooming, their eyes are both a little red from it all, hopefully they cool it down soon. Both are flopping, not beside each other but at the same time occasionally or just one will. Im so impressed and in awe, 24 hours ago they were trying to rip each other apart!
Planning on making their x-pen a bit bigger later this afternoon and sneak some of the carpet the will be sharing under one side of it, see how they react. Then keep them in here overnight. I don’t think I will move them to their new home until they are less unsure approaching one another and hopefully also that they lie next to one another!

[BellaKezia]

I have no advice because you seem to be doing brilliantly! You are so patient! I hope all is still going well ish! Hang in there!

[BubbaBunnies]

Thank you so much BellaKezia! Still doing wonderfully! It helps that I am a university student, it gives me a good amount of time to catch up on all my readings, I can never run out of readings!

[BellaKezia]

Haha i might actually get some of my uni work done then once i start bonding my two!

[BubbaBunnies]

~48 hours!!
They have been doing amazing!  I have them in a long x-pen run about 2′ x 6′.  No fighting, Alfie just seems to like taking advantage of Lily’s sensitivity regarding her hind end and will shoo her away by just sniffing it, but then she will flop so i don’t think it stresses her out at all.  They were super excited at feeding time this morning, binkying and once I put down the food Alfie did a running binky right on top of Lily while she was eating , she was a little perturbed by that.  Other then that they do not flop on or right beside each other but they do flop/lounge at the same time and Alfie will ask for grooms while Lily is lounging and she will groom while lounging, quite cute.  Im still not sure if they are bonded yet though just due to Alfie shooing Lily away at times, unless this is normal of a bonded pair, and the fact they ant lounging right next to one another.  But here are some pics over the past 48 hours…

When they were in Neutral space just under 12 hours in when Alfie started grooming and fussing over a shared Lily.

Lily calming down about 12 hours in and Alfie eating beside her 

Before I went to bed the first night 12+ hours in, both cool as cucumbers!

Settling into the Semi-Neutral territory nicely!

Dinner time in the semi neutral territory, also with the cage extended to 2′ x 6′ instead of 2′ x 4′ like before. And a rug that is not neutral!

Post dinner lounges 

And this morning just under 48 hours in at breakfast, Lily had already eaten but Alfie was too excited and banking around to eat, so he ate after.

And now they are both grooming themselves and loafing/lounging about .

So does it sound like they are ready for their new shared home or should I wait?  They are extremely comfortable around each other if its not Alfie’s face in her hind end and their lack of lounging side by side.  Is it important that they exhibit all this before they live together in their new place (Alfie’s old cage totally wiped down with vinegar, new blankets, remodelled etc.) or just that they are comfortable around each other and they will develop those traits later?

 

[BubbaBunnies]

OMG I think they are bonded!  Or nearly!  I have them in their new cage together plus a run (it will always have a run as its a bit too small for 2 buns to be locked in imo).  They were just doing so well when I moved the x-pen directly beside their cage that I couldn’t resist and they have been doing great, exploring and banking over each other its absolutely adorable!  

The moment I decided they deserved to live in their new cage together!

Exploring their cage!

Both of them are so happy and I am just so relieved all that time was worth it! Thanks for all the suggestions and encouragement! Ill add some more pics of them together when I get some

[MoveDiagonally]

Awesome! Congrats. They’re adorable together.

[Author]

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