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Forum DIET & CARE Boy and Girl Baby Buns: planning for the future

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    • BunnyBeth
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        Hello,

         I have two 11 week old siblings! My friend, who used to breed rabbits for 4-H, just sexed them and now I know I have a boy and a girl. This is good and bad news.

         

        Good news: They have names now! Yay for Betty and Dupree!

         

        Bad news: Really means I’ve got to nail the timing for separation and spay/neuter.

        Basically, I was planning on spay/neutering no matter what for behavioral and health reasons, but was hoping I would have two of a kind to give me time to find a good low-cost vet whose also experienced. And because then I wouldn’t have to worry about separating them at the right time to avoid more surprise buns.

         

        I guess I’m posting this because I have questions about appropriate ages for these things.

         

        How old should they be when I separate them? I want them to be safe, but I don’t want to do it too early because they love each other and get along very well. I have a NIC condo ($x2x3 cubes) that I can move the levels in to create to smaller, temporary cages during this and post-op period.

        Will they need to be re-bonded after time apart like that? Or will their hormones just go bananas and potentially change everything?

        At what age can I get them fixed? Obviously, the sooner the better because then they wouldn’t need to be apart as long.

        How long is too long of a car ride to get to and from the vet? I live in a rural area where the first full-service, but small town is about half an hour away, then a larger one with more veterinary options if 45-60 minutes away, and then I can make it into a booming metropolitan area in 10 more minutes. 

         

        I love my buns. They’re awesome and friendly and even get the litter-box right sometimes. Any advice on how to get them through the approaching storm as painlessly and safely as possible would be appreciated.

         

        Also, I read somewhere rabbits can mate through cages? Does that mean that I need to put an extra barrier around the floor level of the NIC cage when one is out exercising on the floor and the other is inside? Obviously when they’re both in their cages they’d have to go through a wooden board and two feet of air, but just the cubes won’t be enough if they’re on the same level, will it? I’m asking because I’m operating in rather limited space (aka my bedroom) because I live in a communal house and so though I can use the hall or bathroom if I really have to, it’s easier to just keep the buns in my room and have supervised playtime.

         

        Thank you!

         

        Peace,

         

        BunnyBeth


      • JackRabbit
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          First, the time to separate is now. Hormones can kick in any time now (smaller breeds mature faster than giant breeds though so some of this may not apply to the giants).

          My bonded pair are half brother/sister and, once I learned how young their hormones could kick in and that I had to separate them, we did everything possible to keep their bond intact. First, we moved each to his/her own dog crate but kept them side-by-side a few inches apart. They continued to do everything together but just couldn’t touch. Next, I arranged for them to be spayed/neutered on the same day so that both would have the same vet office smell. I’m sure some may disagree with this, but they were spayed/neutered a little younger than most — Marlee was born 8/2 and Moshi 8/5, and both were done the Tuesday of Thanksgiving week. They both did beautifully. They continued to live separated, but got play time together starting @ 3 weeks post spay/neuter once it seemed Moshi’s hormones had mostly calmed down (didn’t want to risk him humping and Marlee getting hurt post-spay). They took up grooming and snuggling as if they were never separated. They continued living separately but with daily play time together for another 4 months while we remodeled what became our bunny room, but had their room been ready, they would have lived together much sooner. We also do things like always take both to the vet together even if only one needs to be seen. They are almost 15 months old now, and while they have their disagreements (Marlee can be a bit snitty at times and Moshi is all boy), they love each other and are inseparable.

          So, maintaining a bond can be done.

          Car ride distance, hmm. Others can help better than I can on this. I wouldn’t think an hour would be bad. My other bunny was spayed at a vet a half hour away with no problem. I think it would help if you could gave their carriers face each other during the ride so they can see and smell each other for a little comfort. For Kieko’s spay trip, my son and his girlfriend went too (Kieko was technically still “their” bunny at the time) so they talked to her and would reach in and pet her. BtW, Kieko was spayed at 4 months — done as somewhat of an emergency spay because she went absolutely nuts (like she was possessed — biting, growling, lunging at every noise) when we got Marlee and Moshi and we couldn’t get her calmed down. She was a 2 pound scary furball of hell. She was much better after her spay, and aside from attacking the vet before her surgery, everything went smoothly.


        • LBJ10
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            I agree. The time is now.


          • BunnyBeth
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              I think they’re gonna be about 7-10 lbs, but they’re a mix and I didn’t see the parents so I don’t actually know.

              Okay, so as far as separating goes, again, I’m a little constrained by space and budget. My bunny condo is 4x2x3 cubes, as I said. I currently have a full bottom floor (4×2), a small second floor (1×2) and a large third floor (3×2) with 13 inches between each level. What is the best way to adjust this to two bunny cages? I could move the upper floors and create two levels that are the same size but then they wouldn’t see each other. Or I could slap two more grids on the space between the 3rd and 2nd level and make one flat space and one two story space where they could see each other and sniff through the grids if the one on the lower level stands up on its hind legs. Do either of these sound suitable, or is there another idea? Again, I can’t go out an buy a whole bunch of supplies because I need that money for the vet, and I can’t just give them separate rooms.

              Also, any suggestions for preventing touching when one is on the floor for free play and one is in the lower NIC level?


            • drwil
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                Now.


              • JackRabbit
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                  Your current condo really isn’t large enough for two bunnies, plus the height between levels should be taller. Each bunny needs to have at least 4×2, and your bunnies need to be able to easily periscope without touching the level above.

                  Is there any way you could get an xpen and set it up so that part of it is a few inches from the condo? Xpens can be configured in any shape to help with odd size space issues. If you could do that even for a month or so it would help. If they’re going to get to be 7 to 10 lbs each, they are going to need a much bigger condo!


                • BunnyBeth
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                    Do you mean the floor space isn’t enough? I thought they needed 12 square feet, and one floor is almost 11, and there is the equivalent of two of those, though one is broken into levels. Also, isn’t 26 inches tall enough, that’s the head clearance for most of it (besides underneath the mini level, which is where the hidey box is anyway). I guess I don’t really know how long a 7-10 lb rabbit stretches out. I get that it would be a little small when divided in half, since that’s not how it was designed.

                    I’m not questioning to say you’re wrong, just trying to clarify my understanding of the recommendations and how big my buns will actually be. It wouldn’t be hard to expand the condo with another set of cubes in a couple months.

                    I really don’t know if I have the money for an xpen. If I can find a cheap one used, perhaps. How important are those inches or can I just be vigilant since they’re not allowed out unsupervised anyway (cause I can’t trust them yet). Two sides are blocked by walls. I could just put stuff against the other short side and sit by the final long one. Would that be enough?

                    Obviously I want what is best for them, I’m just also trying to do it without breaking the bank and buying a bunch of expensive things all in one go (since vet bills will be in one go).

                     

                    Edit: The buns are safely separated now. I went with keeping the floor arrangement the same, since it meant a lot less construction. They seem to be okay with it, if not excited.

                     

                    Thank you JackRabbit, LBJ10 and drwil, for your help and advice. I really appreciate it, and if anyone else has any input, I’d love advice!

                     

                    Cheers,

                    BunnyBeth


                  • Beka27
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                      Just reading this this morning, glad you were able to get them separated!

                      As far as the timing/logistics, I don’t think anyone covered that for you yet…

                      Males can be neutered as soon as the testicles descend (around 3.5-4 months old), but vets typically wait to spay females until they are a little older since it is a more invasive procedure, closer to 6 months old.

                      The females spay eliminates risk of pregnancy (no uterus/ovaries… no babies), but males can retain viable sperm for up to 6-8 weeks AFTER they are neutered and still impregnate an unspayed female. This is important info for obvious reasons!

                      So as far as your timeline… your safest bet would be to neuter your boy as soon as you can, but continue to keep them separated until about a month after your GIRL’S SPAY, when they are both around 7 months old. It IS a really long time to keep them apart, but the risk of pregnancy is still there until she is spayed. The extra month afterwards is necessary as her hormones will be raging from the procedure and one or both could get hurt.


                    • BunnyBeth
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                        Thank you for the advice Beka! I really appreciate it. Now I read that it is easier on the bunnies if a bonded pair go to the hospital together, because then they still smell the same and don’t loose track of one another. The timeline you suggest doesn’t really allow for that. Do you think it would matter much, based on you’re experience and knowing that every bunny is different?


                      • JackRabbit
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                          This is why I said that some would disagree with how young my females were spayed. The vet who spayed Kieko at 4 months said she preferred to do them younger because the web of blood vessels to the reproductive organs hadn’t developed quite so much and she found that to be easier to work with and not as hard on the bunny, although she regularly spays females of all ages (she is an exotics vet). The vet that spayed Marlee wanted me to wait a little longer because he preferred that bunnies be a bigger, for him, small bunnies were harder to work with although he too spays females on a regular basis (he’s been seeing bunnies for many years but is not an exotics specialist). It boils down to doing what *your* vet feels is best and is comfortable with.

                          You could still have to “re-bond” them after the healing period, even though they can still see/smell each other. You might also be lucky and find that your bunnies fall in love immediately when you do re-introduce them. No one can tell you for sure how it will go. I gave you my “story” to show that it can be done. The main reason that I rushed things was that I did not have enough time each day after work for three bunnies to have three separate play times and still get adequate exercise time — I needed to be able to at least put two of them together timewise and spacewise for play time (when I got my lops, I had only planned for one of them but couldn’t decide between them so got them both). If you have the time and space, and your vet recommends waiting to spay your female, then you should do what Beka suggests (the timeframe that the majority seem to follow).


                        • BunnyBeth
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                            Thank you JackRabbit. I really appreciate your story, it does help. I think I’ve found somewhere that can take care of fixing them, so I will start asking about what their preferences are.


                          • LBJ10
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                              Just checking to make sure your bunnies aren’t in a position to mate through the bars. I couldn’t decipher that from your explanation.


                            • BunnyBeth
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                                This is how they are separated right now. The brown make up the floors that they have access too and the red is where I put the barrier, so they can only touch if Dupree is on his lower level and Betty stands on her hind legs to sniff at him. Is that okay?

                                 

                                 

                                *Bunnies not to scale

                                 

                                And if you were wondering about when Dupree is out for exercise. There’s me, two walls and potentially a barricade of items if that seems necessary. I have some osb board I could lie against the lower level of the condo as a barrier.

                                 


                              • JackRabbit
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                                  I like your bunny pictures and how you even included them in the drawing.


                                • BunnyBeth
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                                    Haha, thank you! I need to find my camera and get some real photos of them.


                                  • LBJ10
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                                      I see what you did. I think you should be okay. Unless they are acrobats. =\

                                      As far as things being cramped, I think they will be alright since it will just be temporary. Perhaps you could add a row of grids at the top so that bunny has more head room? Of course, you will want to reconsider the living arrangements if this ends up being long term.


                                    • BunnyBeth
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                                        Yeah, it is small for now. What I’ve been doing is alternating having them out by the hour when I am around to try and compensate. I don’t know if I have enough NIC grids to do that safely. Will a rabbit jump if it can’t see the landing? I could turn the roof into walls, but then there would be no roof. And right now the top floor is about as high (perhaps a little higher) than Dupree when he’s stretched as tall as he can be. They’re only about a foot long right now and the top is about 16″.

                                        I hope this won’t be long term. I want them hanging out together again.


                                      • JackRabbit
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                                          I’m guessing you have the second level flooring at the bottom of the top grid — could you drop it to the middle of the second row of grids all the way across so the each bunny has the height of 1.5 grids? I don’t know what size your gtids are but if they’re the same as mine, that would hive each bunny @ 21 inches of head clearance and 4×2 grids of floor space. They wouldn’t be able to see each other except when the one who lives on top was out for play time but each would have the same amount of space. You could even put a 6 or 7 inch cardboard piece around the vase so they could touch when the top bunny is out but couldn’t mate. You can also swap them every few days as to who lives on what level or just swap litterboxes to keep them used to each other’s smell.

                                          Hopefully that made sense!


                                        • BunnyBeth
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                                            I like the idea of swapping them. I’m a little hesitant to tear the whole thing apart because I’m lazy, though if I need to I will. .

                                            Both levels are actually sunk a bit. So the 2nd level is sunk to the second row of grids (meaning it’s less than 13 inches high and the 3rd level is 13 inches above that, which means it’s 16″ of head space instead of 14″ and he can’t reach the top. However, I really like the idea of swapping them. That also will let Betty jump more during the day.

                                            If there are 4″ high splash boards all around the base already, is that enough to stop them from mating? I have no idea how that works… o.0


                                          • Beka27
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                                              Posted By BunnyBeth on 10/30/2014 4:03 PM
                                              Thank you for the advice Beka! I really appreciate it. Now I read that it is easier on the bunnies if a bonded pair go to the hospital together, because then they still smell the same and don’t loose track of one another. The timeline you suggest doesn’t really allow for that. Do you think it would matter much, based on you’re experience and knowing that every bunny is different?

                                              This is something that definitely can work, keeping an intact pair together through the surgery and recovery, but really only if they are the same sex, do not fight, and do not get overly territorial of the space. In your case, your girl will be impregnated before she can be spayed if kept with the boy from now until when they have the surgery.

                                              They are separated right now, so you will need to keep them separate until the last bunny is fixed and healed. At that point, bonding starts over from square one. You might luck out and they accept each other back readily… More likely, it will be a few weeks of bonding sessions… Not a big deal either way. When the time comes, we’ll be here to shed light as needed…


                                            • BunnyBeth
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                                                Thank you again for your help Beka, glad to know what to expect.


                                              • BunnyBeth
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                                                  Thank you again for your help Beka, glad to know what to expect.

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                                              Forum DIET & CARE Boy and Girl Baby Buns: planning for the future