Bonding a nippy bun, help!

[whiskylollipop]

Hi guys.

I’ve been trying for a month now to bond my fixed male minilop with a fixed female Netherland I got from a rescue. Their first date went great, they mostly ignored each other but there was no aggression whatsoever, so we took Sasha home.

However, things rapidly went downhill. We were bonding them out on the balcony, which is completely neutral, but by the second and third dates there was a lot of chasing and fighting. We made the mistake of putting their litterboxes out there I think, and we never knew to end on a good note so we always just separated them when the fighting got too much. I think they might associate each other with the fighting unpleasantness now.

Our minilop Merlin is not aggressive at all, but he was the dominant bun of his previous bond (his mate passed away) and refuses to submit to Sasha, which probably offends her as she turned out to be a very dominant personality herself. So she is nipping him a LOT, which always provokes the fighting.

We recently tried stress bonding in an effort to curb the violence, by placing them in the shower with the showerhead running to one side and only a small elevated towel to stand on (they don’t get wet unless they fight or walk into the shower stream). It worked the first time as both were able to sit side by side with minimal nipping, but the second time Sasha had gotten used to the situation and was back to being her nip-happy self.

I feel like this is a plateau we have to break through somehow. They will not bond if Sasha keeps nipping him, but she won’t stop. Water sprays, loud noises, holding her head down, we’ve tried it all. She just will not stop nipping him. Now these are not aggressive bites, just calm, calculated dominance nips. Things turn violent because Merlin of course does not like being nipped. But when she leaves him alone he is perfectly happy to to be around her. He’s not aggressive towards her.

We have had no humping so far, only nipping/fighting. I believe this is because Merlin is too upset about being nipped to hump, and Sasha probably does not know to hump, as she was rescued from a single-bunny home.

How should we proceed? How can we encourage her to stop nipping and give Merlin a chance? I want to believe that they will bond, but to do so Sasha needs to learn to play nice. Please share your thoughts, I need all the help I can get.

[LongEaredLions]

I think since its goisng downhill, I would take a break (2 weeks is fine) and then start as if the bunnies had never met. After the break is over, start bonding very slowly, offering lots of positive reinforcement. IT sounds like they were fine, they something caused them to dislike each other. This is the only method I can think of to help with this, but I am sure other members have other ideas so I hope they chime in so you have lots of options. Good luck, I hope you can find a method that works for you and your buns.

[tanlover14]

I agree with LEL, you all need a break. I would take a 1-2 week break and start from the VERY beginning.

It’s important to find a situation that works for BOTH bunnies. This can sometimes be difficult but trying to bond in an area that is not helping along their bond can make matters much worse. Do you have the ability to take them on a car ride? Both buns in a box/carrier and drive around for a bit. Someone needs to be able to watch/control the situation in the back seat with them though so you’ll need two people.

[whiskylollipop]

Thanks for the responses!

We did take a 10-day break previously, and restarted by stress-bonding. My boyfriend and I tried to take them on a car ride, but they were nipping each other too much in the box (or rather, Sasha was nipping Merlin and he was boxing back). I didn’t want to drive out on the road only to have things escalate and cause a panic in the moving car. So we took them out and put them in the shower instead. The first time went well, but the second day when we tried to do the same, Sasha just wouldn’t stop nipping Merlin.

It feels like she’ll never stop nipping. Will she eventually tire of this and stop on her own given enough time? Or should we be doing something different here? :S

[LongEaredLions]

If she is not nipping hard and it doesn’t escalate into a fight, I think I would let it be. They need to work out their differences with minimal interference.

[tanlover14]

Let me ask you this… is the nipping breaking skin or is she more pulling fur?

LEL is right.. they need to work out their differences with minimal interference and a lot of time that’s where the issues stem. They’re not given enough space to work out their differences on their own. However, you also want to ensure no one gets injured. It can be a very fine line to walk. How long are you letting their actions progress before interfering? This includes spraying, yelling, ANY sort of interference

[whiskylollipop]

Merlin is very fluffy so she mostly just pulls fur, but she has bitten him on the nose before and drew blood. Prior to the 10-day break, they were all-out fighting whenever they were face-to-face. We definitely had to pull them apart to prevent injury, as water sprays and loud noises do not work when they get stuck into each other. It was quite scary to watch, they were either on their sides kicking each other or basically tumbling around like they were in a washing machine.

In the shower situation after the break, things were MUCH better. There was no fighting, but because Sasha was still nipping him every now and then, Merlin would sometimes get defensive and they would scuffle and roll around a bit. But it was much easier to stop, and then they would sit in silence until the next time Sasha decided to nip him. I usually let the nips happen but once they start scuffling I would push them apart.

I know they need to work out their dominance hierarchy, but it seems like Sasha is just trying break down Merlin’s spirit. He doesn’t do anything to her at all, and it’s HIS territory. I always feel so mean when I have to subject him to the bonding sessions! How can I encourage him to just submit already? I have tried banana on her head, she lets him lick it off but once it’s gone he’s done, and she gets offended he’s not licking her anymore and nips him.

[LongEaredLions]

I know it can be stressful and you can feel bad subjecting them to bonding, but imagine how happy they will be together! I remember when I was bonding two of my bunnies, one of them was terrified all during the bonding. But in the end, they were the happiest pair. Just keep going!

[MoveDiagonally]

It’s really important to remember that Sasha is not being mean or consciously thinking about her actions. She’s not trying to break his spirit she’s just doing what bunnies sometimes do in these situations. She doesn’t have intent. I know it can be REALLY hard to remember this during bonding when one bunny seems to be a “problem”. It can be really hard to distance yourself emotionally during bonding but I’ve always found it kind of necessary.

I have 5 rabbits bonded together and I’ve seen the kind of fights you’re describing. TL is 100% when she mentioned having to find something that works for both bunnies. I think a break is a really great idea.

It sounds like stress bonding has been the most successful thing you’ve tried. I would even try pre-stressing Sasha before a session. I’ve had to do this when bonding my more aggressive rabbits. Something else that can help is keeping sessions super short at first.Getting them to be near each other without fighting, even for 5 minutes, ending the session and repeating can help long term.

[tanlover14]

I agree completely with MD. Bonding can be SO difficult, time consuming, stressful but like LEL said… it’s so worth it in the end. You just have to keep going! They will eventually get there. I am a strong believer that any rabbits can bond. Some just take longer than others!

I may have missed something somewhere along the way. What do you mean when you say it’s “HIS” territory? Curious as you want the area to be COMPLETELY neutral. Even just the scent of the place being his area could be causing agitation or aggression issues when bonding. I may just have misinterpreted what you meant though, I kept rereading but wanted to make sure!

[whiskylollipop]

Thanks for all the advice! TL, I should’ve been clearer, I meant that it was his home area in general, not part of his actual roaming territory. He may have wandered into the bathroom once or twice but I don’t think he’s got any scent down in the shower cubicle!

Well, we’ll just keep trying. It’s very hard to watch your baby being nipped and bitten and looking at you like “why are you making me do this?” but I guess I have to persevere! How can I pre-stress Sasha? I’ve considered sort of crippling her a little by putting a clear mesh/organza baggie over her head so she can’t nip him, would that be a bad idea?

[tanlover14]

Definitely don’t do the mesh baggy over her head… Very likely she will completely freak out or injure herself trying to get it off. Buns typically freak out way too quickly and sometimes when that happens it can be VERY difficult to get the situation under control before she injures herself.

I wonder how it would work out if you stressed her alone, maybe by shaking a box around a bit but not hard, then adding Merlin. It may help her latch on and take comfort in his presence after being stressed alone. It’s worth a try for sure!

[MoveDiagonally]

I wouldn’t put anything netted over her head. If she panics she could hurt herself. When I’ve pre-stressed during bonding I usually put them in a laundry basket or NIC cube and jostle it/carry it around the house, ect… Kind of like stress bonding without the other bunny there. It helped during my trio bonding as my more aggressive bunny was less inclined to being instantly aggressive in bonding sessions.

[pipflitterflap]

Hi whiskylollipop.

I’ve been having the EXACT SAME PROBLEM (like so similar it’s scary) and I made an account here just sympathise with you and share what I’ve tried with my two.

Thomas (desexed, lop, 2 years) doesn’t have anything against Heather (desexed, 1 year, cashmere) but he reacts pretty violently when she nips him, which is all the time. I have tried stress bonding and everything else on the internet it seems (lol).

I’ve decided to try get Heather to accept Thomas being near her without tearing chunks of skin out of him. I had a cone left over from Thomas’ castration so I put that on Heather to make it more difficult for her to bite him – sort of like your idea with the mesh but a bit harder for her to hurt herself. I then wiped down 2 litter trays and a small enclosure (with a lid) with white vinegar and put one litter tray at each end in the enclosure. Added hay and water bottles for each.

So I did this all this morning, and as I type this Heather is sitting quite calmly next to Thomas. Initially there was some fighting but due to the cone Heather couldn’t really hurt Thomas easily and he wasn’t really bothered by being headbutted with a cone.

Anyway I hope you have had some progress with your bonding – sorry about this essay-length post!

TL;DR: cone of shame on nipping bunny + vinegar wipedown may help. You can get a cone from your friendly neighbourhood vet.

[whiskylollipop]

Hi guys, I have had a really busy week so had to take a break with the bonding. Thanks SO MUCH for the ideas! Pip, thanks for sharing your experiences, the cone is a fantastic alternative to a baggie (why didn’t I think of that?). I wonder if a vet would just let me buy one for a non-medical reason. I’d love to hear how it worked out with Thomas and Heather, how are they doing?

Ok, so no baggie, got it! I will try pre-stressing for 5-10 minutes before sessions too. Will report results!

[tanlover14]

Looking forward to hearing how it goes !

Be VERY cautious about the collar though. I have two buns after their spays/neuters who were so stressed out by the e-collars they almost hurt themselves flailing around into everything. They went INSANE and scared the heck out of me. If it’s too stressful, definitely take it off immediately.

[pipflitterflap]

Hi whiskylollipop,

The cone came off yesterday and there have been NO FIGHTS, absolutely none. They are now happily roaming around my bedroom. After about three days in the vinegarised enclosure, I moved them to one that smelled a lot like Thomas (non-nippy bun) – this was because Heather was still randomly biting Thomas sometimes. They haven’t started grooming each other yet, but baby steps I suppose

Looking forward to hearing how you go with your two!

[pipflitterflap]

Update: after having a full day and night free-roaming and putting food on their foreheads to encourage licking each other, Heather and Thomas are now grooming each other and snuggling together. Yayyyyy!

Hang in there whiskylollipop, I reckon eventually you’ll get them bonded – just gotta get creative. Wish you the absolute best for your two!

[tanlover14]

Looking forward to hearing what’s happening!

GREAT JOB, PIPFLITTERFLAP!

[Stephanie D]

How did this end up? I am going through the the exact same situation… My female is nippy and it pisses the male off and then they fight… Then later she’ll shove her head under him and he will groom her and they snuggle. Then later they will start circling and biting

I wish it wasn’t so bipolar… I’m afraid to leave them alone … It’s been weeks!

How long do you stress bond for? I’ve only done two five -ten minute sessions in the bathtub.

[Author]

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