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Forum DIET & CARE Pellet – Less Diet (GI Issues)

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    • tanlover14
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        Hey you guys !!!    I haven’t been on here a WHOLE lot lately (although I’ve been trying to catch up for the past week) but I need some help/guidance/advice from anyone who has pellet-less buns OR anyone who may have some ideas….

        As a lot of you know, my Lionhead Simba tends to walk the line of GI issues a little too often.  He has been prone to overproduction of cecals about every 6 months since we have adopted him.  However, he *may* be increasingly having the same issue.  We noticed it again last night after a bout of cecal overproduction & then a run with GI stasis (this is typical for him after the cecal overproduction) less than two months ago.  I e-mailed my vet who has begun to worry as he ages, his digestive issues will worsen.  As they seem to be doing currently.  Each time we have brought him in, she has noticed a sore cecum so we have always started Metacam right away.  Metacam also for stasis – along with Reglan to stimulate appetite, CC & sub-q fluids.   He hasn’t seemed to have gotten to the stasis bout *yet* and hopefully doesn’t *knock on wood*.  But as such is life, she has brought up the possibility of a pellet-less diet to help him now and into the future with his tummy problems. 

        So my questions are:

        1.  What do you all do to ensure your rabbit is acquiring the proper amounts of nutrients and vitamins that they would normally get from pellets?  What about trace minerals? 

        2.  If your buns used to be pelleted, about how much was your price difference *per* rabbit when switching?

        3.  If you’ve ever had a pelleted/non-pelleted bonded pair, how did you go about handling this situation? 

         

        The third is more an issue I’m having because the bun with the problem is bonded to five other friends.  I’m not quite sure how to handle 6 rabbits with them all being on pellets & him not.  Between everyone, they get about 1 cup (a tiny bit under the line) of pellets each night.   Between all six, it takes them a good 2-4 hours to finish them off.   I wouldn’t really feel comfortable separating him from the others for quite that long as he’s a rabbit that is easily stressed (which obviously isn’t good for his GI issues either). 

         Thoughts, ideas, opinions?  Thank you all in advance! 


      • BlueMoods
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          In your situation, I’d get rid of pellets for every bunny. I’d feed alfalfa hay, about 3 cups per day per rabbit, free choice grass hay, 2 cups of fresh greens per day per rabbit, put a mineral block out for them since that will be the only source of salt and trace minerals that are normally in pellets. And, I’d get a vitamin supplement for the water, just to be sure they had all they needed.

          The alfalfa will provide the protein and some of the other nutrients, the rest of the diet and the mineral block will provide the rest and, some vitamins in the water for insurance. Cost wise it should not be much more than feeding pellets, depending on the cost of alfalfa hay where you live. Perhaps a few dollars more a month but not a lot more than pellet feeding.

          Of course they will become near non stop eating machines, they have to since it takes longer to eat hay than it does pellets and, they have to eat a larger volume of it since it isn’t compressed like pellets but, they should do fine without pellets and, you’ll have even less worry over tooth problems with all that chewing going on.


        • LongEaredLions
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            I have never had a pelletless bunny, but I have 3 guinea pigs that don’t get pellets, and one that does (special medical requirements for Mr. Charlie)
            1. Without pellets, you need to offer lots of variety. Atleast 10 different types of veggies per day, several different types of hay and forages, herbs, weeds, sticks, grass and bark, basically what they would eat in the wild. Do not give a vitamin supplement in the water, as it can change the taste of the water and deter them from drinking, which is bad. Also, I wouldn’t use the mineral block. They don’t need much salt to be healthy.
            2. The price will vary greatly depending on the price of veggies/hay in your area as well as the problem of if you have places you can get fresh twigs and forages.
            3.For the one piggy I have on pellets, I take the other piggy out and let Charlie eat in his cage. Really only one of my boys needs to be pellet free, but I put all of them on the pellet less diet to make it easier for me. I do give them plain Timothy hay pellets (made of nothing but hay) just so they don’t feel like they are missing out. Unless any of your bunnies need pellets, you can go pellet less with all of them, it is very natural and healthy.
            Here is my piggies diet, it will be a little different for bunnies.
            -unlimited Timothy and orchard hay
            -small amounts of alfalfa and botanical hay every night
            -15+ types of veggies daily
            -fresh forages including blackberry plants, strawberry plants, and apple leaves and twigs
            -a large pot-grown section of wheatgrass given twice weekly.
            -small amounts of fruit twice weekly
            -oats occasionally to manage weight
            -pure Timothy pellets daily
            -dried herb mixes, usually things like lavender, chamomile, etc.
            -dried squash and veggie mix
            Good luck, I hope you can figure out something for lil Simba!


          • MK
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              I agree with BlueMoods, except that alfalfa shouldn’t be given to grown buns, the high calcium isn’t good for them, especially if they are having intestine issues already. When I first got mine they were on all alfalfa, and it was not good for them at all. The vet told me to switch to timothy. Unlimited timothy will still provide adequate nutrients, and will be safer for your buns with intestine issues. Is he on timothy right now?


            • Sarita
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                To be honest, I’ve had most of my rabbits on pellet free diets with no issue whatsoever. I give a variety of veggies – not a huge one but a nice variety. I think people get scared of not giving pellets but I think it’s a bit over hyped about rabbits not getting enough vitamins and trace minerals without pellets – but hey that’s just me and I have nothing to back this up other than having many rabbits live long lives without pellets. Oh and also vets who don’t seem seriously concerned with the lack of pellets in my rabbit’s diet.

                I see no reason at all either to give alfalfa hay – why is that needed or vitamin supplements in water (ick). Hay and fresh veggies are the suggested largest parts of rabbits diets.

                Honestly with the small amount of pellets that you should be feeding there is not a cost factor difference at all.

                I cannot tell you about the bonded pair situation as any rabbit I’ve had off pellets – which for me is the majority I just took them all off of them – maybe offered as a treat on occasion but that’s about all.

                I have no scientific stuff to back up what I do only the experience of rabbit’s living long lives without pellets and a vet who just doesn’t have a problem with this.


              • Deleted User
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                  I saw your forum this morning before anyone replied but couldn’t post cause I really have no idea, other than to add/agree for all that I have learned since becoming a BBer is that bunny’s first priority is hay, than a good variety of veg with pellets coming a third (last). Sadly, my Henry still doesn’t over indulge in hay and my solution (still not working, DOH!) was to reduce his pellet intake. I am seriously considering ditching his pellets till he eats hay? I barely get to go to the dentist, why I should I take Henry over me??? Ha ha ha ha….. (I so worry about his teeth) I am determined to win this one, even if it doesn’t look like it at the moment. Sorry, just realised that I got off track…. bugga this bunny of mine not eating hay. LOL! So offer up a variety of veggies and you should be all good. And ‘you’ of all bunny owners will know if your bun’s are bothered/upset by it and will deal with it accordantly. For all that I have read and learnt, no additional vitamins are necessary (just another way to spend more money on pet products that we are fooled to believe are necessary – unless a vet states otherwise.).  
                  Anyhow, what I mostly wanted to say was HI! I did miss you and your tribe too. I know your busy, but don’t stay away that long again. Please? lol…

                  Edit/ADD – I have a salt lick for Henry (bought it cause I thought I had too????? again, advertising!), but I now know it’s not necessary. I did replace it, only cause Henry does like/use it – otherwise I wouldn’t have bothered. Look at all I have learned TL14? Are you proud of me???


                • Deleted User
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                    Just had to ADD…. when my time comes and if we come back? I wanna live as a piggy with LEL!


                  • Megabunny
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                      I second that!! What a lucky pig!
                      If it’s any help AH I got one of mine to eat more hay when I just metered out small amounts of pellets a few times a day. But then she lost a lot of weight in the process, so, OK Henry. I will shut up now! But eat your hay!


                    • LongEaredLions
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                        Yes my piggies are living the life!
                        I am fine with you coming and living with my herd, as long as you know how to use a water bottle, because my boys like to make a mess of water bowls.


                      • tanlover14
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                          AndHenry, Hhaahahahaah! I AM SO PROUD and I’m glad you missed me!

                          Thank you EVERYONE for your insights! I’ve been incredibly stressed about this and it’s making me feel much better coming back here for help!

                          A few comments – since I got my e-mail back from my vet as well.

                          – The main concern with going pellet-less (for my vet) is simply my Tans. They are very active rabbits and she worries that going pellet-less will cause them to lose weight. With this being said, she assured me she’s not worried about any deficiencies going pellet-less. She said if we tried pellet-less, we would need to monitor there weights very closely. They are very slim, athletic build of a rabbit and ALWAYS on the go. Nora has also been growing like a weed. We rescued her from a pet store, malnourished, about a year ago (early March of last year). I’m starting to think she may be mixed with some larger breed as she just keeps on growing. She’s currently bigger than my Tans (I haven’t weighed her but she has to be close to 4.5 lbs if not over by now). Last year in June she was barely 3 and was estimated to be 5-6ish months old. She is not getting fat in anyway, her build just seems to be getting bigger so I worry about taking ALL pellets away as it seems she may(?) still be growing. So it’s nice to hear that other perspective, Megabunny!

                          – My buns are currently on Orchard Grass hay (we cannot use Timothy as my BF is highly allergic). As others stated, going to alfalfa worries me with calcium intake as well. Especially with Simba getting older and having varying health issues. BlueMoods, we were *hopefully* or rather considering changing everyone to the same diet (which is what is concerning about the pellet-less).

                          – Sarita – How many different (on average) vegetables do you feed per day? They currently only get about 4-6 vegetables a day. 8ish every three days when I prune the herb gardens as well. Would you encourage more? Or do you think (from experience) this would be sufficient?

                          So some other things my vet and I are in the process of discussing…
                          1. ** What the boyfriend & I are thinking about doing ** — Splitting their pellet intake in half (so around 1/2 cup, maybe a little less) for all 6 bunnies, eliminating ALL treats except really healthy extras I may find, and doing sub-q’s twice a week for Simba. I was thinking about using flowers instead of our Craisins in place of treats? Does anyone have rabbits that LOVE these? Mine have never had them and I’m trying to find something to use that they will still get so excited for but that is healthy as well for everyone.

                          2. Eliminating all pellets except a few tablespoons for each other rabbit and using them as treats for Simba. And adhering to the rest of Point 1.

                          I’m not sure how keen on going completely pellet-less we are. Not because of my previous concerns but rather only because of the Tans and making sure they keep on their weight.

                          What do you guys think?

                          I have also inquired to my vet (via email) about the possibility of doing syringe sub-q’s? I have heard of people using these but have never seen someone use them myself. Are they similar to giving a normal injection (which I’ve done before)? I asked her mainly because Simba is the hardest when it comes to sub-q’s. Even my Tans are easier than him! It’s astounding. He gets himself really worked up the longer we sit there waiting for the darn fluids to flow in.


                        • LongEaredLions
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                            On the veggies, it really varies for each rabbit. 101 rabbits has her rabbits on a pellet less diet and they only need 8 or so types of veggies while I met a member on here that used 20+ each day. It really just depends.
                            I would try decreasing the pellets and see if that helps any (like you said) before worrying any further. Are they on oxbow? I know budgetbunny from YouTube has a rabbit also with GI problems, but since she switched him to the new living world green pellets he has been great. You could try a different brand.


                          • Megabunny
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                              Hi Tanlover,
                              I’m so excited I may actually know something to help you!!!
                              Regarding the rate of flow for sub q fluids, you could get a 20 or 50cc syringe(sterile) and, well, the vet could explain where you can just inject air into the bag. This puts pressure on the inside of the bag and makes the fluids run out faster. Since it’s just subq, it’s safe to do and saves time. Hope this helps. I Don’t envy your dilemma. That’s a tough one w/ all those different needs. But I know they will be in good hands


                            • Dobby
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                                I can’t speak to the benefits or drawbacks of a pellet free diet, but I did want to put in a plug for dried willow leaves (or other types of leaves) as a treat. Dobby loves them and he’s a pretty picky guy. Pip would rather have something sweet but doesn’t turn away when I offer them. I find it so easy to reward them for little things when the reward is not going to spike their blood sugar. 🙂

                                I’ve tried dried flowers and they eventually munch on them but aren’t to the point of taking them out of my hand. It’s more like they might try them if they are sprinkled on their hay.


                              • Sarita
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                                  TL honestly I think that is fine.

                                  Here is what Bogie gets daily: Kale (the Dinosaour one), Parsley, Cilantro, Green Leaf Lettuce, Romaine Lettuce, Arugula, Mint, Basil, Dandelion Greens – some of the veggies he likes more than others.

                                  Bobby who does get pellets but eats very little of them – really eats very little at all except his treats – I know I’m bad gets about the same mixture but he only likes a few things. He’s only 1.5 pounds though so he just doesn’t eat a whole lot of anything.


                                • jerseygirl
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                                    Mine like willow leaves as a treat. Rose petals are popular also. Apple leaves when dried.

                                    If your crew are taking a couple hours to eat their pellets, I think reducing it is a good start! Give you a chance to see how they react without going off pellets “cold turkey”.

                                    With maintaining weight, you could add some “young” or immature hays to the regular offering. Like the young oat in BB’s store. They typically have higher protein but calcium is still same or even less the the matured version.
                                    With your having 3 high energy buns & 3 long haired buns, alfalfa on occasion wouldn’t be a bad thing IMO. Especially if you’ve noticed any weight loss.

                                    I’m sure I’ve asked before, but how old do you estimate Simba to be? Was arthritis and/or teeth issues ruled out?


                                  • Megabunny
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                                      Willow scares me because of the stasis some people have mentioned BUT with summer coming I might want to try it in small amounts. Are these weeping willows or am I confusing them w/ something else?


                                    • Dobby
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                                        I’ve only bought the willow leaves from Binky Bunny. Not sure what type they are.


                                      • Sarita
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                                          I’ve never heard about stasis and willow leaves….


                                        • Megabunny
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                                            Now I’m going to have to check myself on that


                                          • LongEaredLions
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                                              I buy willow leaves from my local rabbit rescue, and they have always been fine. I think they are ok as long as they are made for bunnies.


                                            • tanlover14
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                                                Thank you, Megabunny! I will have to talk to my vet about doing that – I would be worried since we never have the ability to use a full bag in a day, normally takes a week – would that make contamination more likely and dangerous?

                                                Thank you, Sarita! Your selection of vegetables definitely makes me feel better about pellet-less or very limited pellets being a healthy alternative for everyone in my group if we go that route.

                                                Currently, we have specifically decided to halve their pellets. My boyfriend is more curious to find the root of the problem so *i believe* we are going to try one change in diet at a time until Simba shows signs of improvement. My boyfriend suggested just taking away treats but it sounded (through email) that my vet was more concerned with the pellets than specifically all treats although she did encourage eliminating all together.

                                                I will have to look around for some dried willow leaves! We have our AeroGardens which we use for our herb gardens but decided we are going to get lavender in there the next batch, in a month or so, to use as treats. Lavender is fine, correct? I couldn’t find it on any actual sites but it seemed to have kept popping up on random sites as fine to feed.


                                              • tanlover14
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                                                  Oh yeah, Long! They are on the Oxbow. A few people have mentioned maybe trying to switch to that Sherwood Brand. I haven’t considered it very much…..I’m just really not sure how I feel about switching! Oxbow is a good pellet and he’s been on it for a long time. They had him on it a year in rescue before we adopted him with never any GI issues so I don’t think it’s a problem with the pellets per say and if it is….I would IMAGINE (I don’t know for sure though….) that would mean most any pellets would cause this reaction.

                                                  I was debating wether to show my vet the Sherwood brand and ask her her opinion on switching?


                                                • Deleted User
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                                                    Tanlover, I’m so sorry about your recurring problems! I do hope you find the answer and that your boy enjoys a long spell of good health.

                                                    I’ve been following this discussion with interest (just because), and I would like to comment on your last post. It might be a good idea to keep the thought of trying a different type/brand of pellet in mind. I know they aren’t the same but I have a dog who had essentially been eating the same dog food since he was just over three months (when I got him) and when he was close to five he developed a violent allergy to it. It happened in the middle of a bag, and my other dog (who ate this food before the little one arrived to join us) never reacted badly, so it wasn’t a bad batch. I tried a couple of other foods that he’d previously eaten (very occasionally, as a stop gap when I was out of the one they mainly ate) and they made him sick too. So developing an allergy to a food that has been consumed over a long period of time isn’t a concept to dismiss out of hand. Perhaps you should go ahead and discuss the other brand with your vet, it is one more item I’d suggest keeping on the list of things to try.

                                                    Best of luck and I do hope he gets better, Soon!


                                                  • Megabunny
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                                                      Tanlover I think it’s soooo cute that your bf wants to explore the root cause. My husband is a problem solver and I could see him being that exact same way…except anything animal is pretty much my domain. But he’s come a long way from the city boy I married!
                                                      I don’t expect that to be a problem with using the fluids over time, but everyone does things differently. I Worked for a lot of vets over the years and have seen all levels of what’s considered acceptable. I know what you’re saying, and it’s easier for me to say it’s ok because it’s not my pet…except you’d be mad at me if I steered you wrong :-(. But I’m sure the vet will let you know. I do think you’d be fine and really happy w/ how fast you can get those fluids going


                                                    • tanlover14
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                                                        Thank you for your response, Dove! I suppose I had never dealt with a problem such as that one so it never occurred to me that it COULD really be the problem. I’m a lot more inclined to talk to my vet about the switching of brands if the issues continue! Others experiences are so valuable to have when you really have no idea yourself! So thank you thank you for speaking up!

                                                        Thanks also for your response, Megabunny! I have to send her another e-mail again soon so I’ll add that into my questions! Even the possibility would be nice. My vet did respond to the sub-q injections and said that they are actually *for some* more difficult than the IV. She said she would definitely be willing to teach us if we wanted a lesson and to try it out – have any of you used Sub-Q injections before??? Did you find it easier/more difficult?


                                                      • Megabunny
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                                                          Well given that I suck at hitting veins, yeah subqs are easier. And certainly they wouldn’t have you doing IV anyway. Ha ha. There’s a reason I’m not a tech anymore. I think I’d rather do subq than the injections you’d mentioned because I would think with injections, if you got in the wrong place you might be trying to push fluids into a muscle or something that would be painful. With subq once you get a good spot, lifting up the skin, they just flow in till you have a nice ball of fluids.


                                                        • tanlover14
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                                                            By IV, I just meant the good ole bag and line. I wasn’t sure if that was actually considered an IV? LMAO. I don’t know how to really explain it. Other than line and bag or some IV contraption! LOLOLLLLL. Good grief.

                                                            The injections are just like the sub-q fluid and bag, you lift up the skin and go under as well. Same concept (I believe) but just a bit different in regards to administration. My vet said the injection only holds 60ml (we usually give 100) so that could make it more timely as well. I posted it on the House Rabbit Society Facebook group wall to see what others have experienced in regards to bag and line vs. the injections as well to get more opinions. Hopefully I get a good amount amount of answers. I would really hate to take poor Simba to the vet to do sub-q’s next time and have it be useless for us. It’s a good 25 minutes away and we have been able to treat his bouts at home by ourselves now so paying for an appt (I’m not sure if they will actually charge a full appt price), I want to know I’m doing it with good reason!


                                                          • Sarita
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                                                              Hmmm….I’ve only done the sub-q bag thingy – I just switch out fresh needles so I don’t worry too much about contamination myself – but that is just me and if I think the bags been open too long then I will toss it (also look at the use by date – I think it has one – have to look – I have a bag at home that I’ve never used).

                                                              Not sure what you mean by injections either – is that for sub-q fluids? Are you talking about the sub-q fluids being in a syringe?

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                                                          Forum DIET & CARE Pellet – Less Diet (GI Issues)