Dominance

[quirkygirlx]

so I just adopted a 1 yr male mini lop (neutered) to bond with my male 1 yr lop (also neutered). They get along GREAT–except my guy will NOT stop humping the new bun.. They’ve been living together over a week now and the other rabbit doesn’t fight with him whatsoever he just runs away because he’s sick of being humped–not that I can blame him. It’s CONSTANT. They both clean each other and sleep together constantly, but I can’t get my guy to stop! It’s not even territorial or dominance anymore he just seems obsessed with it.. I’ve tried spraying him with water when he humps or even just pulling him off the new guy, but he always runs right back and humps again. I feel so bad for the new little guy because he doesn’t fight back–He seems just as sick of it as I am. Any advice? The new bun is still on a trial period… maybe they’re just not the right match? 

[LBJ10]

As long as there is no fighting, then let them “hump things out”. Your bunny will eventually become satisfied that he is the dominant one of the pair. Sometimes they just need to make really REALLY sure. After all, it has only been a week. Sometimes they just need more time than that to work things out. You said they love each other otherwise, so I don’t believe it is a “bad” match.

[quirkygirlx]

I just worry because it’s at the point the new bun won’t leave his cage–they have a 3 story nic cage and a decent sized area blocked off in my apartment (kitchen and dining room) to hop around and he WILL not leave the cage…the second he does my rabbit starts trying to mount him and will NOT stop–the new bun is losing hair like crazy. That and the new guy is pooping EVERYWHERE–I originally thought it was a dominance thing but now I think he’s so nervous he really can’t help it…

[Stickerbunny]

Powder was obsessed like that to start with as well. It got so bad Stickers began to whine and cry at me, it was the most pitiful sound ever. She’s not a friendly bunny, but she’d claw at my legs demanding I pick her up like a puppy just to get away from him. You do have to kinda let them get it out, but there is also a point where the stress level on the other bunny kind of demands you do interfere a little. I know when Stickers was treated like that, she wouldn’t use the litter box because getting in it would mean not being able to escape. Is there some way you could give them enough space that your new bun can easily run away from the other? What I ended up doing was letting them sort it out by leaving them in a room together all day with me watching them, he’d chase her, she’d run, they’d eventually tire out and flop out together then he’d get up a minute later and start it all over again. Eventually he just got so tired he gave in and was just happy being beside her. And he stopped humping after that.

But, he’d chase her for like, 3 hours straight and hump her for 10-30 minutes at a time, fall over grunting and get up and do it again a minute later. So he was REALLY obsessed. I got the idea of letting them run it out of their system from watching videos of BB bonding her Jack with Vivian.

[tanlover14]

Have you tried doing more bonding in a more neutral area of the house? I wonder if their bond is just not cemented enough. Did you put them back into the area your old bun has always been in? It sounds like he may just not be comfortable enough with new bun to be in his house without having some anxiety about it.

I would set them up in a new neutral territory for about a week together. Let them work their issues out and then re-introduce to the old buns area (if this is what they are currently being housed in).

[LBJ10]

If your new bunny is becoming stressed from the humping, then you could try redirecting the other one. Let him hump him for a little bit though so he feels like he’s making progress, so to speak. Then redirect him to a stuffed animal. I would try that first before resorting to “punishment”.

I also like Stickerbunny’s suggestion. Give them plenty of room with a lot of “outs” so your new bunny doesn’t get cornered anywhere.

[LBJ10]

And tanlover makes a valid point. If possible, having them in neutral territory could cut down on the insecurity he is feeling.

[quirkygirlx]

It’s kind of hard for me to find a neutral territory, I live in a one bedroom apartment… I have them housed together in a big nic cage… I mean my rabbit doesn’t hurt him or anything (that I see) but I’ve definitely seen a personality change in the new guy… My bun has never been the most affectionate, so I’m used to that.. But the new guy FLIPS out if you go to even open the cage door to give them free roam (let alone try to touch him) he runs and hides in the litter box… if you pick him up? Forget it. He’s a shaky panicked mess, scratches the crap out of you, and loses hair like CRAZY. I know rabbits hate being picked up typically which is fine but it’s more than that… I worry my bunny is just a little TOO dominant for him… he doesn’t seem happy. He’s on a week trial that ends on Monday, too… I adore him but I do worry that they’re just not compatible to the extent that both bunnies will be happy… Thoughts anyone? 

[quirkygirlx]

Also @tanlover: The cage they’re housed in is very new to my bunny too, I just built him a nic cage a few days before I adopted the second guy… I don’t think it’s as much dominance poop marking as it is out of fear, my bun literally chases him in circles. The only one he doesn’t seem to bully like that is my cat, who he adores. Ha. 

[tanlover14]

Hmm, have you thought about dating your old bun dating then?

If you decide to continue to try and bond them, I’ll help in any way I can. BUT I think you need to separate them and do a REAL bonding trial period. Typically you keep the buns separated and only do “dates” until they get to the point where they can live together successfully. I feel like your duo could work but they just have not hit the step where they can live together completely.

[Stickerbunny]

Wait a sec, you have had him less than a week and they are already in the same cage? O.o That will probably be an issue with any bun you bring home. For neutral territory in a small space, a bath tub works. But, buns really do need to be housed separately and bonded before moving in together. It will be hard to find one that works just putting them together after brief introduction.

[kcomstoc]

I agree with stickerbunny starting in a neutral territory which a bath tub would be perfect for you and would really help you out….I would ask for another week with these bunnies and keep one in the kitchen (I would pick your original bunny) and then have the new guy stay in the cage (since he could use some relaxing). Take them on several “dates” in the bath tub and let them work it out *ending on positive notes every time* sometimes even ignoring each other is a positive note. I would be surprised if any bunny you just put in the cage with the new bunny would just instantly get along. Also maybe a stuffed toy for your rabbit to hump that would help possibly, I know my neutered bunny REALLY likes humping his stuffed bear and then after he’s done will groom him and then lay down next to it.

[tanlover14]

If your old bunny spent even a few hours in his new cage before you brought the new bun home, he has already claimed it as his. LOL.

I just messaged you more regarding the actual bonding! So I won’t write a book on here saying the same thing.

As I realize I don’t think you actually went through the bonding process now, I can add a bit more to my message. First of all, you should consider yourself very lucky! Buns that aren’t actually bonded and are only having this few problems are very lucky! Some buns can get downright dangerous being together and will seriously injure the other rabbit. Yours seem to be pretty fine though – although I would definitely backtrack and work on them before allowing them to live together full-time. As everyone mentioned, the bath tub is great for first introductions and even further if it works for your buns. My buns always had issues in the bath tub and it was too big so everyone would just hang out on the opposite side, not interacting at all. I have had much better luck with a laundry basket or a cardboard box. I still them in it (I’ll put a towel over the top if the laundry basket has holes) and I literally drag them around the house in it. Sometimes I turn it really quickly so they get nervous and sort of “cling” to each other for comfort. The whole point of bonding is to build up trust between the rabbits and to allow them to build a pecking order based on that trust and comfort with one another.

If you’re bunny is feeling this territorial and anxious over the other rabbit being in his area though, you will need to separate them and begin from scratch. Is there anything in your house you can use to kind of block off a small area for him to stay in until they are actually bonded?

[quirkygirlx]

The first day I brought him home I actually brought them both into the kitchen–a “neutral” area where my rabbit never really is, and the new guy obviously hasn’t been.. and whenever we left the apartment I kept them separate… my guy in his cage, the new bun in an X pen… they did really well and weren’t humping at ALL at this time, so we put them together in my rabbits cage (with an X pen attached so they weren’t just confined to my rabbits area) and they were fine… the incessant humping only started up again a couple days ago. I took them both on a car ride today for awhile and they bunched together of course and everything… but the second we came back my bun started humping him again until I physically removed the new guy and brought him in the kitchen with me–where their area is attached to, but they both never really go… (new bun is now hiding for his life under my little dresser thing, where my bun is too fat to reach him). The biggest problems seem to be at night, where I wake up to the new rabbit’s hair EVERYWHERE and if my bun is getting violent with him I don’t want to terrorize the little guy any more than he already is.  

[quirkygirlx]

it’s also kind of funny because I have a cat (rescue) that came into the picture about 6 months ago, and my rabbit has NO problem sharing anything with her–he never did the territory thing whatsoever, and she even jumps in his condo the second I open the door and lays with him! NEVER an issue–so i guess I wonder if bringing in the bun is an awkward third wheel on those two?

[Stickerbunny]

It takes more than a few days of bonding before it’s a good idea to move two buns in together. Anything could have triggered his territorial behavior – the new bun touched a litter box at the wrong time, the new bun didn’t groom him when he asked, etc. You want to get them bonded really well and then a few over night stays in neutralish territory before you move them into their new permanent home together. Then the bond can cement, but sometimes that also takes time. It took months living together and then a fight/break up before my two cemented. Bunny-dog and bunny-cat and bunny-human bonds are all different than bunny-bunny. Rabbits are typically better behaved with other species than their own, Powder for example gets along with my parrot just fine, my bird can walk up to him and groom him etc. He never showed any signs of humping, even before his neuter. But, with Stickers he was a humping monster that just wanted to dominate her.

The reason over night is so much of an issue is because buns are crepuscular, meaning most active at dawn/dusk. My two get REALLY hyper around 2am and again at 5am, then again at around 5pm. This is when they do the most damage they ever do. The other day I walked in to the closet doors being pulled off their tracks from redecorating rabbits. lol So, you really want to be sure they are doing well together before they go into a permanent housing situation together due to that. When my two scuffle, it’s usually somewhere around 4am when they’ve been running around like lunatics and one got annoyed. Then I hear loud crashing sounds and go tell them to behave.

Bonding is VERY stressful on both humans and rabbits. The fact your guy isn’t aggressive is an excellent start and means with some work, a bond shouldn’t be too hard, though with your new bun being so scared already it will probably take time to build up trust. It is going to take work and time to bond him if he is that dominant as well. For Powder, due to his humping issues, I did a week of through the gate dates (letting them adjust to each other through a baby gate to get used to each others smells etc), then 3-4 days of neutral area dating (which didn’t do too well, he would bite her if she didn’t let him hump), 1-2 days of stress bonding and about 3 days of run around the room bonding. Their first night together I only let them stay together until around 1am, in HER area not his, since even after running it out of his system he would still hump her if she touched his litter boxes. After that, I let them stay together each night as late as I could, then put him back in his room while I went to sleep. That lasted for about a week. After I was FINALLY certain his humping issues were at least mostly over, I let them spend a night in his area (where they were going to stay together) with close supervision and checking them often. After a few months of living together, they still were marking against each other and wouldn’t cuddle or anything. Then they had a huge scuffle where Stickers wanted to kill poor Powder. I separated them for about a week and then reintroduced them and their bond FINALLY cemented after that and they’ve been best friends since… though Stickers still sucks at her litter habits when bonded, she only is good with them if she’s solo, but ah well.

So, bonding can be a very lengthy time intensive exercise in patience and stress managing. Some people can’t get their two to bond properly for months at a time. Your two actually sound off to a pretty good start, with no aggression. They just need to settle the humping and trust issues. If you would like to start over with a different bun, the rescue could probably sort that. You might also be able to get them to work with the pair to try to make the bond work, sometimes a third party bonding can be better since you are more likely to feel badly about some of the things you do during bonding and the stress it puts on the buns you care about than a person who isn’t as emotionally invested in them.

From my experience with bonding my two, your pair sounds pretty well along for less than a week together. I wouldn’t give up on them just yet. Have you talked to the rescue and seen what they suggest?

[quirkygirlx]

Thanks for your response Yeah rescue suggested taking them on a car ride together, which I did, for about 30 minutes. They came back and curled up together and have been pretty good since… Other than not letting me near either of them. I let them out (where I have the kitchen and dining room closed off) and they won’t leave the cage, and if they do and I walk in they race back to the cage like I’m out to get them… It’s just such a change in personality from my first rabbit, he used to be too brave if anything, now he’s terrified of me. I used to find him lounging out on my couch after he unlocked his cage.. now he refuses to leave it. I can’t tell if him and Toby just don’t mesh, or if Charlie is just set on establishing HIS territory, or what… and I have VERY limited room (tiny 1 bedroom apartment) so I don’t really know where/how I could separate them in the process… and the new bun (Toby) just seems nervous and skittish all of the time–granted he’s always been shy since I took him home. I don’t know, I’m just very nervous… 

[Stickerbunny]

In the kitchen, what sort of flooring do you have? Buns are more confident on carpet than tile/wood/linoleum so putting a cheapy throw rug down might help them feel better about exploring.

[LBJ10]

Sorry, I am late returning to this thread. Like the others, I had assumed there have been more bonding going on than just a week. I think tanlover and stickerbunny have given you some excellent advice.
I really do think your buns need more time. Things aren’t violent between them, so I think there is a real chance of them eventually working things out.

[quirkygirlx]

That’s a really good idea. My first bun was originally in a x pen and with a cheap carpet underneath (except my rabbit kept letting himself out when I was at work! Lol) and I still have the carpet so maybe tomorrow I’ll put the carpet in the kitchen and let them both out and see what happens. They’re happy other than the humping and at night, it seems like.

[quirkygirlx]

Well it looks like getting them out of the cage did the trick! They’ve been lounging around my room all morning since I woke up. They both seem SO much calmer, having no issues using their litter box… and a little bit of humping but MUCH more grooming and cuddling Looks like I have the beginnings of two house bunnies!

[tanlover14]

LMAO, so adorable! Just be careful.. night time may still be a problem as they are lots more active at certain times of the day. Exactly why I always suggest doing overnight bondings for a few nights to make sure they’ve been through all situations and moods!

[quirkygirlx]

Do you think I should keep them in my bedroom tonight and see how they are so Charlie can’t be territorial over his cage? Suggestions welcome I’m just happy they’re both so calm right now.. letting us pet them and everything too!

[tanlover14]

I would keep them together in an area that is NOT what will be their shared territory. If they get into a scuffle, you want it to be in an area new to both of them rather than an area they have a reason to be fighting over. If he gets territorial, it’s kind of the humans fault, yah know? If they scuffle in a neutral area then it’s more likely you know it’s something they are having problems with being a couple, not a problem made by the bonder.

Not sure if this makes sense, haah! Let me know if it doesn’t and I can try and explain better.

[LBJ10]

Is the bedroom kinda sorta neutral? If so, it might be better to keep them together overnight in there and see how things go.

[Author]

Messages