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Forum BEHAVIOR Behavior Change: Angry Helo

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    • MoveDiagonally
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        For those that don’t know or remember I have 5 bonded rabbits. The bonding was fairly recent and was a big change for all of them so I’m thinking it might be a big part of Helo’s new behavior. 

        Before neutering Helo had become a little rebellious teenager. He liked grunting at and punching his food bowls and water (they probably deserved it). This calmed down quite a bit after his neuter but lately he has taken a strong dislike for my husband. If my husband goes near the bunnies, tries to feed them, give them water, do anything really Helo will “yell”, grunt, and box at him. If I do the same Helo will chirp softly at me and let me pet and snuggle him. My husband is understandably less than pleased with this new development as it happens when he tries to interact with ANY of the bunnies and I’m a little lost on the cause or how to fix it. 

        My thoughts so far:

        1. Territorial behavior. The first time it happened my husband was reaching into their habitat. In contrast though, I can be just as “invasive” and get the opposite reaction. It also happens outside of territorial areas (See #3)

        2. Possible medical issue. We’re taking him to the vet next week just to make sure everything is copacetic health wise. 

        3. A negative association left over from bonding. We’ve been working on positive association by having him sit on the floor and offer treats when Helo approaches him but Helo punches the craisins out of his hands.

        4. It’s my husband’s attitude and approach. He’s a bit less conscientious than I am about approaching the rabbits in general. His movements are faster and perhaps seem more aggressive? He’s been getting frustrated with Helo due to the behavior so perhaps he’s “bringing that with him” when he interacts with him? I’ve been working with my husband on slower movements and approaching Helo from the side where he’s sure to see his hand coming. It helps a little but he still punches, yells, and grunts at him. 

        5. Something to do with assimilating after bonding/drastic change. Maybe it will get better with time? 

        6. It’s a combination of all of the above. 

        So, BBers…. Any thoughts or suggestions? 


      • Deleted User
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          Gee MD, I find this a little daunting offering suggestions to a ‘forum leader’ ha ha…. and not that I could/would offer any advice as I’m a one bunny girl only 8 months in to the experience – Henry has his favourite between myself and my hubby. My hubby is Henry’s favourite and I do put it down too him being the treat giver, his patience and willingness to lay on my dirty floor to be at his level, etc., and as I am the nutritional food giver, bend over to pat him as I walk by him quickly – I just assumed, that was the reason for Henry’s not so loving behaviour towards me? Maybe that could have something to do with Helo’s reaction to your hubby? Otherwise, like you (even with my limited experience) how strange this behaviour has just come about? All the best MD (& to your hubby!).

          Um, just adding this as an afterthought – I know dogs and buns are different, but has he maybe taken on the role of ‘top dog’? Protecting his pack? As you mentioned, you have only just recently bonded them…. Something to consider maybe????  Cheers.


        • LopLove
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            I’m unsure if this would be a silly suggestion, but maybe you can be the judge of that.

            Maybe you should “stress bond” them? You can drive, and your husband and Helo could sit in the back? Maybe Helo would calm down for the drive, and your husband could use that chance to pet and stroke him enough for Helo to understand that that’s all he wants from him. And if Helo is being agressive to protect the others, separating them for a short while might be good to at least confirm or rule that out. Although, I understand that separating bonded buns isn’t good for too long, but I’m not really sure what “too long” is, so I’ll have to leave that to you too.

            As for using treats as a reward for interacting with your husband, I would suggest not letting Helo eat any treats that he boxes away. Either pick up the treat before he does and try again, or end the treat session until the next day.

            Do you and your husband sit together when he sits with Helo? If you do, it might make your husband look better by association, since Helo is already ok with you.


          • jerseygirl
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              It reminds me a little of Tanlovers Fleury. Almost like taking on a protector role. But this also happens when it’s one on one with Helo?

              I do wonder if they view you as a “rabbit” they’ll socialise with as you’re the one that spent time with them for bonding. But your husbands like an intruder rabbit from another warren. Lol.
              Apparently it’s lone males that venture out and approach new warrens.

              Ok, so maybe they dont view us as rabbits…
              What about our physical appearance?
              Not in detail but more in silhouette. I *think* rabbits see out shape and sense our smell more then they see detail of our features.
              On that note, could it be a scent they react too? Something hubby works with that leaves lingering scent?

              Hopefully BB will see this as her hubby gets a similar reaction from Vivian and they’ve had to work on it. She may have some tips or clues.


            • MoveDiagonally
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                Thank you for your responses! Great tips! Sometimes it’s hard to see our own situations objectively and outside input is always very helpful.

                I do remember TL having a similar issue but I couldn’t find her threads about it. I’ll have to do a better search. If Helo’s taking on the protector role that would make sense to me. My husband was not very close with Helo before all this started so maybe the changes/bonding and Helo taking on that role just drove a wedge in a relationship that wasn’t that sturdy to begin with. At least it’s just noise and boxing and not biting!

                I’m thinking we’re going to try going back to basics. Just starting from square one and work on re-building the Helo/Husband relationship. And here I was thinking bonding was done with for a while, lol. I don’t think my Husband will fit in the cube! 


              • jerseygirl
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                  Lol !!

                  ETA: quickest way to find the threads on Fleury is go to TL’s profile then Topics started.
                  Is their a more definite hierarchy with the 5 now? Who is the top bun if there is one? Or is Helo still settling anything with any bun in particular?


                • Zombie-Sue
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                    Try putting them in the xpen maybe? You’re going to need a really big one though, I know my husband has cleared gates well over four feet high


                  • MoveDiagonally
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                      Hierarchy is hard to tell as of late. Neither Monty or Helo seemed to concede during or after bonding they just stopped fighting. They are both “the boss” of all the other bunnies but with each other they don’t hang out very much. They don’t avoid each other either though. Helo does groom Monty and Monty does not groom him (or anyone, the jerk) but I don’t get a submissive feel from it. This is similar to what happened when I bonded the trio. Penny and Monty had the same relationship as Monty and Helo have right now. It eventually settled and they started getting more lovey, comfortable, and hanging out more.

                      It has all been such a big change for everybun and I think they’re still working out the details. Maybe I should give them more time to settle and see if time helps with the Husband/Helo thing? Geez, why are bunnies so complicated!? O.o

                      Try putting them in the xpen maybe? You’re going to need a really big one though, I know my husband has cleared gates well over four feet high

                      LOL!


                    • jerseygirl
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                        Lol @ Zombie-Sue!

                        Neither Monty or Helo seemed to concede during or after bonding they just stopped fighting. They are both “the boss” of all the other bunnies but with each other they don’t hang out very much. They don’t avoid each other either though.

                        i guess I’m not surprised by this haha. I think you’re right, things will probably settle more yet. His behaviour toward your hubby might be a sort of outlet or he does it to engage him even. Like a form of play. It does he get stressy at the time?


                      • tanlover14
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                          Hey there! Yepp, does sound exactly like my Fleury…. I’m glad you directed me to the thread MD because it’s so interesting that it happened to both of our groups. Both when they hit five bunnies. And it’s only one rabbit out of the bunch doing it. The only difference is Fleury does it to both of us and only one of you but both my boyfriend and I spend adequate time with all the bunnies so I don’t think a persons shape, smell, etc. has a strong possibility of being the culprit if BOTH of them are doing it for the same reasons (assuming they are).

                          Quite honestly I DO think it’s him being quite territorial. I say this because we recently moved the whole group into our bedroom long term (they were in our dining room) to live. For the first two days, Fleury stopped this behavior completely. No lunging, growling, etc. Then two days later, he was right back at it. The only thing that changed was territory! And I’m assuming as soon as he became comfortable and used to the new area, he must have went right back to his previous feelings. My best technique to date has been quite literally “killing him with kindness”. Every time he does it we pick him up and snuggle him right into a bear hug. Since he’s gotten so much better about being handled he doesn’t mind it and I believe he typically stops after we do that. But then the next time we come in… it’s the same thing all over again.

                          Sometimes I wonder if possibly Fleury has become more aggressive about his territory because he’s worried about someone else taking over the group. For quite a while, I thought Nora was the boss. But all the Tans were chasing her and Simba around one day (awhile ago) and then shortly after that is when Fleurys behavior started. There was no physical fighting, just chasing. But I kind of wonder if Fleury has taken back over and is worried someone will take it from him? Total guessing here. LOL. I feel like our bunny issues are going beyond the area of rabbit study. Haha! About a month ago Tanger was playing with me and jumping on my back and Fleury flat out attacked him. Twice. I had to grab Fleury and stop him from chasing Tanger. As soon as I left the x-pen they were perfectly fine though. It’s all so confusing!

                          I will say…. my boyfriend just commented (I showed him the thread) that Fleury doesn’t not seem like a protective stance… just a big brat stance. LOL. Aka. Attitude problem!


                        • jerseygirl
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                            Sorry to go off topic here.

                            … I say this because we recently moved the whole group into our bedroom long term…

                            Are you getting any sleep?!!


                          • tanlover14
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                              LOLOLOLOLOL. Very reasonable question… the answer is: No.


                            • jerseygirl
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                                Lol! What possessed you? I’m still having a chuckle.

                                On topic, I see a bit of this from both Potamus & Jersey.

                                When Maple was really sick I had to remove her from Potamus and Gooseman completely. When she was doing better, i’d bring her back in with them for some company. Potamus was really out of sorts with her presence. She seemed confused actually. When Maple lost balance and flailed, Potamus would growl and pounce at her. When I assisted Maple, Potamus would then do that to me. It was sort of aggression and protectiveness mixed up together. Of the 3, Potamus is the one that shows territorial tendencies at times.
                                I know have Maple back with them full time and things have settled, but when I give attention to Goose or Maple, Potamus runs up for her share.

                                She’s also one ive had success with by picking up briefly when she’s being ansty. Just 2 seconds then back on the floor. It has worked with TimTim also. I’d only advise this with rabbits you know do ok being picked up.
                                I do take advantage sometimes and have a cuddle and pep talk lol.
                                I’ve seen both stay put after I’ve put them back down, then follow me about the room. Not run in fear like you’d think. ( If I reach to pick them up again they’ll hop away though. )
                                I usually try petting and talking calmly to them once I place them back down again anyway.

                                With TimTim, he attacks my feet if I walk into the room after having been barefoot in with the other rabbits. I only now need to say “Uh uh” and step toward him standing dominant and he’ll stop the behaviour. He gets over the initial urge to attack very quickly. He stands his ground but won’t attack when I then move forward.


                              • MoveDiagonally
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                                  Tonight I took Helo away from the group for some snuggle time and after he was thoroughly relaxed I had my husband start petting and snuggling him too. This seemed pretty successful as he continued to chirp softly and purr! Eventually we got him on my husbands lap without incident. Buuuuut…. Later he was back to being grumpy towards him. Lol. I think the killing them with kindness is a good way to go. Maybe some good snuggle times will help… And if not at least we get bonus bunny snuggle time.

                                  It being a territorial thing makes a lot of sense to me. It goes hand in hand with him being extra “defensive” of the other bunnies and their home. I’m hoping that a combination of time, snuggling, and basic bonding with a bunny techniques will improve the situation.

                                  TL – It is weird that we both are having the same issue! It’s hard to find people with 5 bonded bunnies but I wonder if others with quintets have similar issues.

                                  Thanks so much guys! All this has been really helpful to me.

                                  LOLOLOLOLOL. Very reasonable question… the answer is: No.

                                  LOL


                                • jerseygirl
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                                    Good to hear MD! I think both building that trust and their learning that their aggressive behaviour will not have impact does help.


                                  • Deleted User
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                                      Hey MD, I was the first to reply (with no advice – doh) just a suggestion as to why it may have come about (in case you can’t recall me). I wanted to throw in (now that the important stuff has been covered) – you know how I said my hubby was the favourite with Henry, cause he spoils him etc.? Guess what? My hubby was furious when Henry was given to me. & to this day – “I don’t even like him”! (as my hubby walks outside to pick him a mulberry leaf). Hubby eats a banana on his way home from work each night so Henry gets a piece for his dessert! Do I need to go on???? No wonder that dam bunny doesn’t love me!
                                      And with the top dog protecting his pack – I just got that from my dogs behaviour. My maltese ‘George’ (female), she is top dog – especially with Henry. Don’t get me wrong, 9 months in, the other dogs and Henry can hang out, but if George thinks they are going to do anything unacceptable to Henry – George reacts! I know she is probably doing the mum thing (she is 10 years old – I thought she’d be over it, I am! lol), but it made me think isn’t that what most males do – protect their pack? So, sorry if it sounded silly, just letting you know that is where my thought process was at the time. (so hopefully you don’t think I’m a super weirdo – lol!). But on the chance that is the case? and again I know buns are different to dogs, you may find that if he has taken on that role, not much will/can change it. I’m not sure if buns do that, but after you said you bonded your bun’s, that really was the first thought that came to me? I’d really love to know how you get along in the next few weeks – besides wanting everything to work out for you and your hubby, I am curious? Thinking of you both + 5!

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                                  Forum BEHAVIOR Behavior Change: Angry Helo