Zeus and Freya

[Treori]

OK, so update time first.

Last time I posted, Zeus and Freya were being cage swapped as a way to try and cool down some of their agression with each other until he was castrated and healed up. This has been going on for about 3 weeks now I think and they are up and down. Sometimes they snuggle through the bars, sometimes they box, usually it's Zeus going at it the most, he will demand grooming from her and when she doesn't comply he will attempt to box her as punishment *rolls eyes*. He hasn't tried to hump anything though, and only sprayed twice, so low hormone levels

 

Zeus was castrated on Tuesday (2 days ago) and he is healing much quicker then I expected. an hour after he got home he ate a massive double handful of pellets, a large pile of alfalfa hay and a diner plateful of mixed greens and some banana…. such a greedy boy. He was in cage/pen rest for all of Tuesday and most of Wednesday, but he was leaping around his cage and on and off his box that I decided to allow him a little exercise… which he grabbed with both paws and binkied around the living room XD He had his post op check, and the vet also remarked at how well he was recovering. .

So I have grumpy bum in her pen at the moment but she did look folorn when she couldn't see Zeus during the day of his op and greedy guts is currently exploring next to my feet.

So in 3-4 weeks depending on how well he has healed I will begin bonding properly!

 

Ah! So nervous! And scared XD I will post updates in this thread if anyone wants to follow it lolz

 

Wish us luck <3

 

 

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Sounds promising-wonderful you had such an easy neuter experience! Sounds like he’s doing just great -take things slow with the two of them and I bet you’ll have a happy couple in no time

[Treori]

Thank you, I’m so nervous you would think it’s me about to go on dates not them XD

But they have been absolutely hideous to each other this morning. Both pulling fur from between the bars, with Zeus being the instigator (really, he seems to be much more aggressive then her, I was excepting Freya to be as she is female and they tend to be more territorial etc, but she actually likes him except when he bites her).

[CheriB603]

“She actually likes him, except when he bites her.” Lol!
I had a boyfriend like that once. xp

[Treori]

haha OMG I think we used to date the same guy

[Treori]

OK, so small update. On the advice of my vet after giving Zeus another check up, she said he was healed enough that I could tentatively begin bonding.

The first date went as expected. One scuffle of them circling and Freya grabbing onto Zeus’ hindquarters and not letting go until I put my hand over her shoulders (she always instantly becomes compliant when I do that. It’s handy if she is in a place she isn’t allowed because I can keep her still until I get into a better position to remove her). Ended it on a good note with both ignoring each other.

The second went the same as the first.

The third was tonight and I am still shaking from it.
It went the same as the other two dates they both ran up to each other, heads down and demanding to be groomed, neither is giving in about this either but Freya is the one that will always get bored of that position and will hop off doing her own thing after a few minutes. The head to head lasted a little longer and when Freya stopped she didn’t move away immediately like usual so I assumed that was a small step in the right direction. Both got on with things etc etc and then Zeus demanded to be groomed again and when Freya didn’t immediately give into his demands he went at her again (as he has the other two dates, thats what starts the fights. He hurts her once and she WILL hold a grudge and will go at him after that)
In the split second it took me to reach them both and place a hand on their shoulders and move them apart (thank goodness for laminate flooring) I noticed blood. As Freya is black I checked Zeus over because blood shows up better on which. I could see it was him bleeding but then I noticed some blood had sprayed up the door and the wall and there were drops all over the rug I had moved him on.

I started to panic because this is all in the space of 1 or 2 seconds and there is a lot of blood already. I move him around into the light and check him when I realise its the main artery in his ear thats been bitten and there is blood pumping out very fast. But this time there is a large puddle of blood appearing, there is blood all over me, the walls, the rabbit had his shoulders, neck, belly, legs, paws, face and tail all covered and I just know if I don’t stop the bleeding he WILL die and fast.

Luckily I did a first aid course when I was about 10-12 and I can still remember all of it and figured that stopping bleeding would be the same in a rabbit or a human in an emergency. I put a lot of pressure above the bit and held it there while my son went and got damp tissue to clean around the wound so I could check when it stopped bleeding. Took a couple of minutes to stop the bleeding but I did manage it and I spent the next 30 minutes helping him clean off as much of the blood as possible. He is still pink all over but he isn’t showing signs of shock.
I KNOW Freya never meant to do that much damage, she just managed to bite him in the wrong place and she was defending herself from him at the time but I’m so scared now. She came over to him and sniffed his ear and then law down quite close, he froze and just stared at her. He wouldn’t move until I got the kid to move her away and then he began cleaning himself again. I will take him to the vets on Tuesday and see if he needs any antibiotics and to just get her to check over his wound and get some advice.

I have NEVER in my life seen so much blood. I’m still shaking and I keep tearing up when I remember how close I came to loosing him. I don’t know where to go from here.
I know they will definitely need a long break from this, Zeus needs time to come to terms and to heal… again… But I still don’t know if trying to bond them is even viable now. What did I do wrong? They were in a neutral are, with slidey floors so it put them off a bit. There was no food because the sessions were only about 45 minutes each. Should I do shorter ones to start with if/when I try again? Would 15 minutes a day be enough? They usually don’t start fighting right away. They ignore each other and then they both demand to be groomed, and once Freya goes off to explore again so does Zeus, the second demand is usually where Zeus gets a bit nasty and they end up fighting. Me separating them, and stroking them till they are both mollified and I can trust them to not go at each other right away again.

I tried the banana trick on Zeus’ head, but Freya flat out ignored it. Should I start cage swapping again? Or should I just give up entirely?

I just feel so awful now, if/when they bond then I would be doing away with their pens all together and having them as fully free range and able to enter any room they want except my sons room (too many toys for them to chew on in there) I have read about peoples rabbits fighting, I even saw a youtube video of a very difficult bonding where the rabbits were seriously going at each other….. but no one nearly bled to death. Should I look at this as just a hiccup?

Ah I think Im gonna go and have a long cry now because it really has upset me so much :'(

[Treori]

OK, I’ve re-read a lot of info on bonding and I will try again in a months time with very short sessions (5 minutes each) there ARE good signs during the sessions they have had so far, them grooming themselves, and eating when I’ve provided greens and hay for them. They have even chilled out and stuff (gonna include a picture of Zeus on the first date.) I might have just went too long and had a bit of bad luck, but both ARE wanting to be dominant, and I’m unsure what to do about that. I’ve a feeling Freya might be the one that’s slightly less dominant though as I swear I saw her lick his head once and she hasn’t been the instigator for the fights either. It’s always been Zeus (and she just carries the grudge). When they are both in their cages, you can see them wanting to lay together.

Just seriously stressed and could do with some friendly advice on this situation

[Irina]

Hello Treori! I am so sorry to hear about what happened to poor Zeus! It must have been horrific! I am new to bunnies, with little experience. I did however just finish (I think- they have been together 4 days without incident…) bonding Tofu and Butterscotch with the help of this forum and other sites/videos etc. So I don’t know if this will be helpful, but from what I have learned, every bunny is different, so different tips may come on handy when you least expect it.
The first thing I would wonder about is stress bonding. Have you tried that? I never did, (but read a lot about it as prior to starting bonding, my two got out and had a fight under a chair… So I was worried…), but a lot of people seem to suggest it when there is aggression. I don’t know how you feel about it, but may be helpful (I don’t know about the car ride- unless you have somebody willing to intervene there with you- but perhaps the laundry basket on the drier as it runs? Or being in a carrier or cube while you run the vacuum? I have heard people use spoons to bang on pots too…)
The other thing, which I did do after watching a video where this worked, was to stroke the bunny who is demanding the grooming (Zeus in your case, who is getting peeved at Freya’s refusal), to appease him a bit and buy some time until Freya may decide to groom?

Not much to go on- but it is all I have. I think I would seriously consider the stress bonding though. I really hope it works out for you! Good luck!

[Treori]

Thanks, yeah it was really horrible. I myself an not new to bunnies but I am new to bonding as I have kept single bunnies in the past. I didn’t get much sleep last night but Zeus is absolutely fine this morning. He woke me by banging his plates together and binkying and racing all round his pen as loudly as possible this morning haha. I will try the vacuum and the ‘taking the basket and shaking it’ tricks on them once he is fully healed.

He is extremely wary of Freya now. So apart from the cut on his ear, that’s the only difference, he is still a happy big bunny who can never seem to get enough to eat
I have been stroking him but I was worrying that I might just be making the problem harder because Freya was showing no inclination to groom him (their first date, she was cleaning her front paws and he shoved his head in there to try and force her, she just stopped licking her feet, She didn’t move, but she did start licking her side and belly instead. As far as I can tell from the dates, while Freya refuses to be submissive the aggression has mostly been started by Zeus, she will quite happily sit leaning against him grooming herself but he will start to claw her or bite her.

She will demand grooming as well, yesterday they were nose to nose for about five minutes, until Freya decided to lay down fully, keeping her head against his but just relaxing, She shows no inclination to give into his demands but she will stop demanding grooming first.

I will be trying bonding again in about a months time. 2-3 weeks of cage swapping before hand and very short dates a couple times a day. Maybe 5 minutes in the morning before the kid goes to school, 5 minutes before dinner and 5 minutes before bedtime.

~edit~ I forgot to include that picture of Zeus. Here he is halfway through the first date. He decided to go to sleep XD

[Treori]

Well, it’s been a while since I last posted.

Zeus healed up beautifully, and was wary for a couple of days, but he soon got over himself. Once he was better I did a lot more research because no one here seemed willing to give me advice on how to proceed.

I found two people that said that no bunny is unbondable (but sometimes its not worth the stress to the rabbits or to you and all you end up with is two rabbits that tolerate each other and no more) both had suggestions which I have followed and they have worked well

1. Keep dates short until you know you can trust them together longer. (5 mins or less)
2. enforced snuggling (teach them that its nice to be touching each other)

So we did one date a day just before bed. They had no greens at all so now they dont get greens unless they are on a date, it helps Freya especially be a bit more tolerant of me taking her through to the ‘dating area’. Once there, they are encouraged to eat at the same time. I start them at opposite sides because Freya has lunged and growled at Zeus before, but after a minute or two of eating and realising he isnt going to steal her food, she usually moved around so she is beside him and the two of them eat together happily enough (unless Zeus is silly enough to stand on the last bits of parsley or carrot tops…. Freya’s fav bits) I let them sniff each other and make sure to keep a close eye out for lunging and stop it before it begins. And I usually end the date up by putting them along side each other, heads together and stroking them until they are in serious bliss. I can leave them like that and they will snuggle happily for quite some time now. Sometimes they even go straight towards each other for snuggles before getting down to the serious task of eating.

Both still want to be top bun though, they both demand grooming, but so far its only demands and no fighting. Freya will NOT lick banana off Zeus’ head (tried it) which is a shame, because I have the feeling that she is the less dominant one out the two. But tonight I decided to put banana on HER head instead. Zeus licked it all off…. and then demanded to be groomed XD

There is rarely any fighting between the cages now and I am swapping cages each night again too.

My question is…

If I use the banana trick, can I get Zeus used to licking or grooming Freya so he will do it on his own? Or will he always be wanting to be dominant? And if so, do you think Freya might eventually ‘return the favour’ for being groomed by him? Because I feel like this is the only hurdle they have. They want the other to love them unequivocally, BUT neither are willing to take that first step.

[Irina]

Hi again Treori! Sounds like you are making progress! Again, I have only bonded one pair if buns, so I am not the most experienced here. I am just responding to your question regarding whether or not Zeus will ever groom Freya in his own without the banana etc. When I bonded Tofu and Butterscotch, Tofu was definitely the more dominant bunny. He was constantly demanding to be groomed. So much so that I thought Butterscotch would have a sore tongue! During bonding it was totally one sided (I remember thinking if Tofu was a boyfriend, I would kick his selfish a** to the curb!), as he never groomed Butterscotch. However within one week of being together, the dynamics changed and I started to see Tofu groom Butterscotch. It seemed that once he was satisfied that he was going to get the grooming he wanted, he could give some back too.

I don’t know if that helps or not- but that was my experience! Good luck!

[MoveDiagonally]

I could have sworn I commented on this post after the injury! I even remember what I thought I wrote. O.o
Anyway, I’m sorry if you felt ignored Treori.

I’m glad Zeus is better! A while back Monty’s sore hock/blister burst and blood just seemed to pour out never ending. I understand how scary stuff like that is! You had wonderful instincts helping him though. Onto your questions! I’m bonding a quintet right now so I have bonding all over my brain.

If I use the banana trick, can I get Zeus used to licking or grooming Freya so he will do it on his own? Or will he always be wanting to be dominant? And if so, do you think Freya might eventually ‘return the favour’ for being groomed by him? Because I feel like this is the only hurdle they have. They want the other to love them unequivocally, BUT neither are willing to take that first step.

I’ve had and am having this problem currently while bonding multiple bunnies. When I bonded my trio Monty and Penny both wanted to be the boss and neither wanted to groom the other. It seemed so important to them, sometimes entire bonding sessions seemed to revolve around it, that I put a lot of effort into making it happen. I didn’t find anything super successful really. The banana trick or hiding crasins behind their ears worked in the moment but I didn’t see it translate into autonomous grooming. I ended up bonding them without witnessing much mutual grooming. Flash forward to now, 4 months later, and having them in an all new bonding situation. Penny still only occasionally grooms Monty. They still like each other, hang out together, and snuggle. They just don’t do the grooming thing.

Based of my experiences (I’m not a behaviorist) I don’t think that grooming is the end all that be all in bonding that it often feels like it is. Dominance/submissive relationships between bunnies seem to be more complicated than who grooms who so this time around I’m not worrying about it so much. I’ve been focusing a lot more on body language. I’m not saying you should stop trying to encourage them to groom or doing the “banana trick”. Even if they don’t groom it still helps them associate the other bunny with something positive which is always good. Freya feels groomed and that makes her happy. Zeus gets some banana and associates treats with Freya.

I was wondering something though! When they do their groom demands do they both stand there with purpose or is one more relaxed? I recently read the relaxed head down can actually be a submissive signal to the other bunny and not a grooming demand (which is what I always thought it was). Penny (the one that doesn’t groom but is submissive to Monty) does this sometimes when he demands grooms and he seems satisfied with it re-affirming his “boss status”. Phew… I didn’t mean to write an essay! Hope it helped some.

[Treori]

Thanks to both of you. It does help

Diagonally, from their body language. Once they have both eaten enough to satisfy them and they are both demanding grooming, both look tense. Usually nose to nose, heads against the ground, but they are hunched up quite a bit so they backs are rounded. If one moves (usually Freya) the other will shove their head underneath the others and they generally will not be moved again unless the other moves away completely (again thats usually Freya)

From what Ive observed Freya is the least dominant one. But Zeus truly hates having his grooming demand ignored. He will usually ignore her if she moves around quickly, but she doesn’t like it if he does, and she may lunge, growl or try to nip if he moved unexpectedly, which if I don’t intervene straight away in will result in Zeus going to town on her either boxing and biting, but when I stop it and give them both a quick stroke they settling quickly and there are no more attempted lunges or bites.

Freya DOES relax down after her grooming demands not been met. She out of the two of them is the one that will let it go without a fight, but she still wont give into him. Neither mounts, but I did think Zeus was gonna in the last date (got all excited, because while she wont groom, she has never been upset when he climbs over her so I have a feeling she might accept being mounted) but instead he sniffed her butt and then turned and tried to shove his head under her chin XD

So would me stroking him every time he wanted groomed, could that help keep his frayed feelings in check until he is happy in his status as boss bun?

Yesterday, after he licked the banana from her head, she did look like she was about to lick him in return, but my son decided that moment would be a good time to come through and bug us lolz.

[MoveDiagonally]

Their interaction does sound a lot like early Monty/Penny to me. I have so many pictures of them shoving their heads at each other, lol.

Hm… Have you considered stress sessions? Stress bonding won’t help them work out their dominance issues exactly but it can help with the aggression. After the aggression is curbed/minimized you can feel comfortable doing longer sessions which helps them work out the pecking order. Have you tried “grooming” both while they are demanding it of each other? Stroking their heads to simulate grooming has been helpful for me. I alternate hands to get the smell of one on the others head.

Hope things are going well!

[Treori]

There has been very little aggression recently. They can easily have dates up to half an hour or even longer without fighting (there hasn’t been a single fight since that incident with Zeus) but they are slowly working on trusting each other. So if one gets startled, there may be a little lunge, but that’s as far as it goes, Freya is more easily startled than Zeus but she is also the one that’s more likely to snuggle up to Zeus. She quite often tucks her head alongside him with her nose just under his belly and she relaxes down quite quickly. (Zeus allows this while he is eating)

Yup I stroke them a lot, especially during the ‘enforced snuggles’. If they are nose to nose then I stroke on and then the other with the same hand.

If there is ANY aggression during the day then I dont date them that evening to stop those annoyed feelings bleeding over. And Zeus was not pleased with Freya being in ‘his’ pen (pen swapping at the moment) and there was a bit of fur pulling between the bars before I could reach them and pull Zeus away from the pen and block it off.

They seem fine today, Freya’s went up to Zeus in her pen and they have touched noses and left it at that.

I need to forage some clover before the bad weather kills it all today XD but they both LOVE clover so I should expect some serious munching and happy bunnies during their date later on tongiht

[MoveDiagonally]

Just a little bump to ask how things are going?

[Author]

Messages