Forum

OUR FORUM IS UP BUT WE ARE STILL IN THE MIDDLE OF UPDATING AND FIXING THINGS.  SOME THINGS WILL LOOK WEIRD AND/OR NOT BE CORRECT. YOUR PATIENCE IS APPRECIATED.  We are not fully ready to answer questions in a timely manner as we are not officially open, but we will do our best. 

You may have received a 2-factor authentication (2FA) email from us on 4/21/2020. That was from us, but was premature as the login was not working at that time. 

BUNNY 911 – If your rabbit hasn’t eaten or pooped in 12-24 hours, call a vet immediately! Don’t have a vet? Check out VET RESOURCES

The subject of intentional breeding or meat rabbits is prohibited. The answers provided on this board are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. It is your responsibility to assess the information being given and seek professional advice/second opinion from your veterinarian and/or qualified behaviorist.

What are we about?  Please read about our Forum Culture and check out the Rules

BUNNY 911 – If your rabbit hasn’t eaten or pooped in 12-24 hours, call a vet immediately!  Don’t have a vet? Check out VET RESOURCES 

The subject of intentional breeding or meat rabbits is prohibited. The answers provided on this board are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet.  It is your responsibility to assess the information being given and seek professional advice/second opinion from your veterinarian and/or qualified behaviorist.

BINKYBUNNY FORUMS

Forum BONDING Starting pre- bonding. Suggestions please!

Viewing 64 reply threads
  • Author
    Messages

    • Irina
      Participant
      290 posts Send Private Message

        Hello! I have 3 4 month old polish bunnies who are litter mates. Tofu and Butterscotch are male and were neutered September 9th. Shadow is female and us booked to be spayed at 6 months. They each currently have their own pens. Shadow’s is between Tofu’s and Butterscotch’s. Shadow has always gotten along well with both boys- for now, she seems quite happy to be submissive and groom them both (I realize this may change as her hormones start to kick in). Tofu and Butterscotch have had a rocky road, as Tofu is more dominant, but Butterscotch has not given in. They have never really fought, but that is probably because they were separated as soon as I saw Tofu chasing Butterscotch and trying to mount him. Right now, they take turns having free time outside their pens. When one of them is in our outdoor hutch, I leave that pen open so the free bun inside can go and explore and become familiar with everyone’s scent. For now, my focus is on Tofu and Butterscotch: I have switched poo/litter, switched grass mats, log hideouts and blankets. (I have stuffies in their pens for the past week, and will be switching those out too). There does not seem to be any sign of aggression when I do this. I am reluctant to house them side by side though, as I have read that they can bite each other through the pen. (Although, while Shadow was outside today, Tofu was in her pen and put his nose through to Butterscotch’s pen, and Butterscotch groomed him! It was only about 30 seconds… But it was lovely!) I am wondering if I should have Tofu and Butterscotch swap cages? I know not to start actual bonding until 4 weeks after their neuter, but is it ok to swap cages now? Is there anything else I can be doing? I will post updates on this thread as we start bonding, and when Shadow gets thrown into the mix as well. I would appreciate any and all suggestions! I have read a lot on this and other sites, as well as watched many videos- and to be honest, it is very intimidating! I would hate to see one of my bunnies get hurt, and since I am new to this, am a little nervous. Tips please!


      • Treori
        Participant
        87 posts Send Private Message

          My two buns, while they aren’t bonded yet, they were quite aggressive between the bars to each other, especially if one leant against the front when they were having their turn out to play.

          I tried switching items, but that didn’t seem to do anything, so I swapped cages, once a night, and within a few days there were being sweet to each other again, i.e gazing at each other, snuggling through the bars etc etc.

          Have you decided if you are bonding all three at the same time? Or if you are going to do a pair and then try to add the third in? Because if you are doing all three together, then you might need to cage swap all of them at the same time, which can get tricky to juggle lolz. Cage swapping though really helps mingle their scents together though, you want to create a ‘family/warren’ smell for them so they start to associate the other bun as part of their warren


        • MoveDiagonally
          Participant
          2361 posts Send Private Message

            I wouldn’t bond all three together until Shadow is spayed. The reason being that if she were to get hormonal before her spay she could upset the bond for all of them. I would focus on your boys and leave your lady rabbit single until her spay. You can house your boys next to each other but you want to make sure there is space between their habitats so they can see, hear, and smell each other but not bite or get at each other. Cage swapping is a good idea too.

            Bonding can be intimidating when you’re new to it but try not to fret too much. You have to stay calm during it because if you’re overly nervous they pick up on it. Wear long sleeves and gloves just in case there is a fight you can break them up without fear of being bitten. Pay attention to their body language and you’ll learn how to spot building aggression, etc… If you have a metal strainer you can put it between them if things get nasty during a session. Last but not least, try to end every session on a good note. When sessions end on a bad note it can encourage fighting.

            Best of luck!


          • Irina
            Participant
            290 posts Send Private Message

              Thanks! I was planning to wait until Shadow is spayed before introducing her into the mix- so working only with Tofu and Butterscotch for now- that is in keeping with what I have read about not bonding bunnies while they are hormonal. However, since Shadow will hopefully be bonded in after her spay, should I start alternating all three cages now? Or would that confuse things for the boys? I could just swap out the two boys cages if that would make things easier for them. Any opinions?


            • MoveDiagonally
              Participant
              2361 posts Send Private Message

                I would just focus on the boys as it could cause confusion. Tofu and Butterscotch need to be focused on each other without any other bunnies involved. If you're still allowing Shadow to have play dates with either of your boys I would put that on hold until after she's spayed and you're ready to bond all three. Having a third bunny interacting with them during and for a while after their bonding could cause an upset in their relationship as it grows and cements.

                Think of bonding in terms of human relationships. They need to date, get married, and have their honeymoon.


              • Irina
                Participant
                290 posts Send Private Message

                  That makes sense. I just thought if I kept Shadow in the mix, they may be more ready to accept her too once she is ready. Is it still ok to house her in the same room? Her pen is in between the two boys. I would really like to avoid moving her- as I have bunny proofed the room they are in… Do not have any other readily available space… Could make it happen if you think it is necessary?


                • MoveDiagonally
                  Participant
                  2361 posts Send Private Message

                    It should be fine to house her in the same room. When I bonded my trio I had two other rabbits living near them and it didn’t seem to cause any issues. I just wouldn’t have any mingling or play dates until you’re ready to bond her with them. I understand your thinking about keeping her in the mix but with bunny bonding you don’t want them to get distracted. Once they are bonded I would continue to keep her separate (until bonding) because they need that time to get used to living with each other and secure their bond. With them in a good place together you will hopefully reduce the risk of any “break ups” when you add Shadow.

                    Hopefully you get lucky have have easy bonds! I’m rooting for your little bunny family.


                  • Irina
                    Participant
                    290 posts Send Private Message

                      Ok- so another question please! I have stopped play dates with Shadow and either boy. While I am switching cages between Tofu and Butterscotch, waiting for the 4 weeks after neutering to pass so I can start official bonding (1 more week or so…), is it ok to let them out of their pens into the living room at the same time, as long as I am there? Or should I not do that until I reach the semi-neutral
                      phase of bonding? As it stands, they have had 2 cage swaps, and over 1 week of poo/grass mats/chew toy swaps. They take turns being out of their pens. Tofu tries to stick his nose through the pen when Butterscotch is near, but Butterscotch generally ignores him- with the exception of one 30 second grooming. Butterscotch does groom Tofu’s stand in stuffed animal though. They sniff each other for short periods if time through the pen while one is out, but it is shirt lived and seems to be just in passing. There isn’t any obvious aggression… But I don’t know if it is appropriate to let them out together to see how they get along. The room is quite big- 20ftx30ft- so they could easily avoid each other. If they fought, I suppose that would hurt their chances at bonding?


                    • MoveDiagonally
                      Participant
                      2361 posts Send Private Message

                        Personally, I wouldn’t do it. If they were to fight it could delay or hurt their chances of bonding as bunnies are not always quick to forgive or forget. If you want to try an introduction before the 4 weeks I would do it in a neutral place and see how it goes. I’m a big fan of sticking to the neutral > semi neutral > territory progression.


                      • Irina
                        Participant
                        290 posts Send Private Message

                          Ok- perhaps I will try my bathroom tomorrow- they have never been there. If it does not go well, I will end on a good note, and wait another week. Thank you so much Move Diagonally! I will post progress and welcome further advice if possible!


                        • Irina
                          Participant
                          290 posts Send Private Message

                            I just want to be clear on the best way to approach this. Should I do a little stress bonding in a carrier first? Or go straight to the bathroom? Would I put the carrier in the bathroom and turn on my dryer? (Cannot put them on top as my washer/dryer are on top of each other). What do I do when I put the two boys in the bathroom: I have a spray bottle, a metal strainer, will have long sleeves and gloves. The floor is ceramic time, so very slippery. Should I put a towel down in the middle? Should there be greens/hay/litter box and toys? Would these things be a distraction, or something to fight about? And the first experience should be limited to 10 minutes? Thanks in advance for all the help- I have never done this before!


                          • MoveDiagonally
                            Participant
                            2361 posts Send Private Message

                              There are many different approaches and “right” answers to these questions and a lot comes down to personal choice and what works best for your bunnies.

                              I wouldn’t do stress bonding before the first session because it gives you a chance to gauge where they are at without the added stress. If the introduction doesn’t go well I would stress bond before the second session. If you have a stacking washer/dryer I might try a different in home stress bonding method. Maybe put them in a laundry basket or box and carry it around, drag, and/or jostle it. You can do this near a running dryer to add noise stress.

                              During introduction sessions I tend to hover because I’m not sure how they’re going to react to each other. I pet each bunny and then the other and so on so their smells mingle. The spray bottle can be helpful when they’re not in reach but I’ve found that you have to react fairly quickly with spray bottles because when they get in the “fight zone” they ignore it. The strainer can be used as a quick barrier between them if they try to fight. You haven’t had a lot of issues with fighting by the sounds of it so hopefully they won’t start now!

                              I’ve put down blankets on slippery floors but some people think it’s better to leave it slippery as they’re less likely to lunge/chase and it’s also can be mildly stressful. I would really say this is entirely preference and you should do what you feel comfortable with. I would leave out hay/greens/litter because early on they can sometimes just become something to fight over but you can feed them treats if you’d like. Sessions can be any length you want as long as they’re getting along well enough. If things seem to be taking a turn for the worst end the session on a good note but if they’re getting along you can keep it going.

                              Some other tips!
                              – If one humps the other let them them do it for a few seconds and then gently separate them. This will let the humper feel dominant without the humpee getting a chance to get too irritated.
                              – No backwards or face humping allowed as it can lead to genital injury.
                              – A little fur pulling or chasing is alright but I don’t allow them to “go at it”. I give them a few seconds to resolve it on their own and then intervene if they don’t. This is where I usually use the spray bottle.
                              – Try to stay calm if things do go badly and don’t be afraid to try new things if something just isn’t working. All bunny bonds are different.

                              Good Luck! Let us know how it goes I’m a bit excited/nervous for you!


                            • Irina
                              Participant
                              290 posts Send Private Message

                                Thank you so much Move Diagonally! I will try today or tomorrow and see how it goes… I am also excited/nervous! Will post updates as they happen!


                              • Irina
                                Participant
                                290 posts Send Private Message

                                  Ok- so we were in the bathroom for 40 minutes. Tofu and Butterscotch mostly ignored each other. When their paths crossed, Tofu either sniffed Butterscotch a little and kept moving, or the other way around. There were two occasions when Tofu seemed to give Butterscotch a little bite on the rear- but very minimal. At one point they Tofu laid down beside Butterscotch, face down waiting to be groomed, but Butterscotch ignored him. Near the end if the session, Butterscotch looked scared and huddled next to a wall, so I pet him and reassured him. Tofu eventually came over and laid down behind Butterscotch. Butterscotch got up to groom himself, so Tofu stuck his head underneath Butterscotch. I was very nervous here, but Butterscotch groomed Tofu’s head a bit ( I thought it may have been an accident as he was grooming his feet near Tofu’s head…), and after finishing cleaning himself, groomed Tofu’s head a little more. Maybe only 10-20 seconds… I decided to end it there, as it was as good a note as I think I was going to get.

                                  So I think it went well? Should I do the same tomorrow? Should I turn on the dryer to make it more stressful? Would it be better if they were in a smaller space, so they had to interact more, or should I leave well enough alone? Should I have kept the session going? I had the time but did not know if things would deteriorate, so I took the opportunity when it presented itself!

                                  Move Diagonally- what are your thoughts?


                                • AnnaW
                                  Participant
                                  569 posts Send Private Message

                                    I will let Move Diagonally do most of the talking here as I am nowhere near as experienced, having had a freakishly easy bonding journey … but all of that sounds really positive to me! Head grooming is most definitely a really good sign, well done to you and buns x


                                  • MoveDiagonally
                                    Participant
                                    2361 posts Send Private Message

                                      It sounds like you and they did really great! What a nice beginning. I think you could do the same thing tomorrow and see how it goes. Pretty much anything but ending on a bad note is a good ending so you could push on a bit longer in your next session if things go well again. How exciting!

                                      I would hold off on stress bonding for now because Butterscotch seemed a bit nervous and they seem to have progressed pretty naturally during their intro session. Generally I stress bond when there’s aggression or when things get too stagnant. I didn’t stress bond my original pair at all, they loved each other very quickly. My trio required LOTS of stress bonding because I had two dominant bunnies.


                                    • Irina
                                      Participant
                                      290 posts Send Private Message

                                        Ok- so do the same thing- still no hay/greens/toys?

                                        Also, all three bunnies are currently in separate pens- Shadow’s is between Tofu and Butterscotch. They are all connected though- so Butterscotch shares a pen wall with Shadow, who shares a wall with Tofu. I am thinking from what was said in an earlier post, that Shadow should be separated all together? She is no longer having play dates with either boy.., but her close proximity may pose a problem?

                                        The last thing is, would it be safe for Tofu and Butterscotch to share a pen wall- as in their pens would be adjoining, and not a few inches apart? I am wondering since they have not been really aggressive, would it be ok? If it would, their spaces would be a bit bigger… If they have to be completely apart, their pens would be smaller (still 4ftx4ft… But otherwise could be 4ftx6ft).

                                        I apologize for all the questions, but I think I have actually read toouch about bonding and it has made me feel like it is a very delicate balance that could be easily thrown off… I want to make sure I am doing all
                                        The right things! Thank you again for sharing your experiences and knowledge with me!


                                      • MoveDiagonally
                                        Participant
                                        2361 posts Send Private Message

                                          I would leave out the hay/lettuce/etc… for now and introduce them when they seem to be consistently getting along. If it causes an issue then remove the items and try again later, if it doesn’t then they should be fine.

                                          If possible, I think it would be a good idea to house Butterscotch and Tofu next to each other. Shadow’s proximity may cause an issue and it may not. I imagine it will be more troublesome when/if she gets hormonal before her spay. Her smell will change and that could throw off the balance a bit. Right now it doesn’t seem to be causing much issue though. On sharing walls, I’m inclined to suggest that they be separated a bit. Fighting through the bars is not the only concern sometimes when bonding rabbits have territories that are too close they can feel invaded by the other rabbit which can lead to more issues. I kept my rabbits about 5 inches apart in pens when I was bonding them, any closer and my bonded pair would start fighting and get agitated. That said, it’s also possible that they could share a wall and have no issues so it really comes down to what you feel is best. knowing your rabbits.

                                          No worries about questions, I really don’t mind answering them. I have bonding on the brain lately and I’m about to start trying to get my 5 together.


                                        • Irina
                                          Participant
                                          290 posts Send Private Message

                                            Wow! I cannot imagine how I would even begin bonding 5! I hope you will start a thread and post progress so we can learn from your experience!

                                            As for my two- we went back to the bathroom for about 45 minutes. First 10 minutes was spent ignoring each other (I wonder if the space is too big… Almost 10ftx10ft ?). Tofu flopped I front if Butterscotch who seemed to be hiding on the floor behind the sink- Butterscotch then groomed Tofu’e face and ears on And off for 5 minutes or so, at which point Butterscotch stretched out and they just lay together for 5-10 minutes. Butterscotch got up to groom herself, they both walked around for a few minutes, then Tofu flopped down in front if him, wanting to be groomed… After a little bit- Butterscotch groomed him again.. This happened once more and ended with them both lying beside eachother. I ended it there, again taking advantage if the good note. I think this is all good. I have a question though- when they are facing off, and Tofu us waiting to be groomed, if it is taking Butterscotch a while to do it, I will pet Tofu’s head- I saw that in one of the binding videos- to help him wait. Is that ok? Also, when Butterscotch is grooming Tofu, I will pet Butterscotch and reassure him. Is that ok? I don’t know if I should be involved at all- I just thought, from what I read and saw, that it is okay to reassure them at the beginning?
                                            Shall I repeat exactly the same tomorrow? Thank you for all the advice!


                                          • MoveDiagonally
                                            Participant
                                            2361 posts Send Private Message

                                              I would maybe try another session in a smaller neutral area and see how it goes. If it goes well you could probably move on to semi neutral without a problem. I think re-assuring them is alright. Sounds like things are going great!

                                              I plan on keeping up a thread when I bond again. I did one when I bonded my trio and it helped a lot.


                                            • Irina
                                              Participant
                                              290 posts Send Private Message

                                                We had another 45 minute session in the bathroom today- (although I sectioned it off so they only had half the space, as advised). It went really well- Tofu nips (?pulls fur) Butterscotch once or twice at the start of each session, then basically we spend the rest of the time alternating between Tofu being groomed, or the two lying next to each other. There isn’t any overt aggression, but Butterscotch does seem scared sometimes- today he did not move around much (although in fairness he was falling asleep in his pen when I brought him in…), just stayed in one spot and waited for Tofu to come to him. He was lying down, ears up, bum up- not in a flop or anything. At some points he did seem to relax, and stretch out, even seemed to be drifting off to sleep once. But he did not really explore the setting like curious Tofu did. It is like he was saying “ok- this again. Alright I’ll just wait here”. Of note, Butterscotch has always been a little nervous, (much more so since he was neutered and had post-op seizures etc). He sometimes seems anxious when he is alone in his own pen…So I am not sure he was significantly more nervous during bonding. Does this seem ok? Also, I made their pens adjoining today after the session, and watched them for a bit. It seemed to be ok- Butterscotch even groomed tofu between the bars- so I think that is good. Is this the way it will always be? Butterscotch having to groom Tofu all the time? Is Butterscotch doing it because he wants to, or because he is terrified Tofu will hurt him if he doesn’t? (I know nobody probably knows the answer… Just seems like such a one sided relationship (if Butterscotch was a friend of mine, I would tell him to get rid if the selfish, demanding, overbearing guy (Tofu).

                                                Move Diagonally- So now I guess I can go to semi neutral space? How big an area should it be? I can section off a part of the living room where they both have separate playtime? Should there be any toys/hay/furniture? Or should it be pretty sparse so there are no distractions?

                                                Thank you again for helping me navigate through all of this first time bonding. It is reassuring to know I am following the advice of someone who knows!


                                              • MoveDiagonally
                                                Participant
                                                2361 posts Send Private Message

                                                  (if Butterscotch was a friend of mine, I would tell him to get rid if the selfish, demanding, overbearing guy (Tofu)

                                                  Haha!  I know the feeling! Grooming can seem pretty one sided during bonding and sometimes after bonding. I think it levels out eventually. During bonding one of my rabbits did nothing but demand to be groomed but now that they've been bonded for a while he grooms the others on occasion. Usually the more submissive rabbit grooms the dominant one more often but that's not always the case. It's a social thing for rabbits so I don't think it's ever done out of fear. 

                                                   
                                                  I would make the semi-neutral space probably no bigger than the size of an X-Pen. I would do the first session without distractions/food/litter boxes/etc. This will give you a chance to see how they're doing in the new area without worrying if something added is causing any change in behavior. If all goes well you could add food and a litter box if you want. If any of it causes and issue or if either one tries to monopolize the litter box (plays king of the mountain) I would take out whatever item is causing trouble and try again in a later session. I'm thinking you won't have too many problems though.  
                                                   
                                                  I was thinking about what you said about Butterscotch being sleepy during the bonding session. If you want to try a session during the morning or evening they will probably be more active since rabbits are crepuscular
                                                   
                                                  On a side-ish note, have you seen this before? It's a great site that really explains a lot about bunny body language. I totally forgot to mention it before but I think it's a must see for most rabbit owners and it can come in handy while bonding too. Rabbits are usually so non-vocal so body language makes up the majority of their communication. 


                                                • Deleted User
                                                  Participant
                                                  22064 posts Send Private Message

                                                    They yield turns getting out of their pens. Tofu tries to stick his adenoids through the pen if Butterscotch is near, but Butterscotch about ignores him- with the barring of one 30 additional grooming.


                                                  • RabbitPam
                                                    Moderator
                                                    11002 posts Send Private Message

                                                      Irina, I deleted the second post per your request. I think you don’t know that if you start a post, and add your own reply, I am pretty sure you have the ability to delete your own reply to it, or to edit your own subject line and body content.

                                                      If not totally deleted, you can always go back into your own reply with Edit, delete the text, type in [edited by Irina] so someone else sees the blank area is by you, and it’s gone. We often don’t like what we’ve written and want to edit it, so that’s what the Edit button is for. I’m pretty sure that button is available to you.


                                                    • Irina
                                                      Participant
                                                      290 posts Send Private Message

                                                        Thank you Rabbit Pam! Will try that next time.

                                                        Tofu and Butterscotch were in a semi- neutral area today for 45 minutes. Approximately 4ftx6ft- (living room walled off with 2ft high foam mats). Tofu was a little more aggressive- nipped/pulled fur 4-5times instead of the usual 2. Once or twice it was because He put his head out to be groomed, and Butterscotch walked away from him- so Tofu expressed his dissatisfaction. They did settle into a grooming session and then lay together for a bit. Unfortunately, Tofu spent most of his time trying to find a way out of their enclosure- digging at the corners etc. It was as if he did not notice Butterscotch at all. He flopped beside Butterscotch a couple of times (that does not mean he wants to be groomed right? Just a flop beside the other bun?), and he may have licked Butterscotch’s mouth area- either that or he was chewing at him? We ended when they were lying side by side.

                                                        I definitely think I have to change the way I section off a spot for them, because the foam mats were too distracting (- even though I used them in the bathroom without issue?) I can use a cage 2ftx3ft… But that is too small? I do not have an extra ex pen- would take a good deal of maneuvering to move one of theirs and use that…Any ideas wrt the cage?
                                                        Is the extra but of aggression normal given the change to semi neutral space? Help!


                                                      • MoveDiagonally
                                                        Participant
                                                        2361 posts Send Private Message

                                                          It sounds like the session went well! An increase in aggression is normal when you transition to a more territorial space. Rabbits are notoriously territorial. Unless they start getting worse I would continue doing semi neutral sessions until they get to a good place. It seems like it ended well which means they were able to work through the initial aggressiveness. Flopping beside another bunny is a comparability thing.

                                                          You could give the smaller cage a try and see if it causes more issues or not. I used to make my pens smaller when I was bonding to force interaction. I’m not sure how your pens are set up but when I didn’t have spare while bonding I would sometimes take on of the pens I used as a cage and wipe down the bottom of it (where I felt like the smell would be) and moved it to a semi-neutral place. It was a but of a pain though.

                                                          All in all, it seems like they’re progressing well!


                                                        • Irina
                                                          Participant
                                                          290 posts Send Private Message

                                                            Thanks Move Diagonally! I will see what works best. Also, thank you for the link you suggested regarding bunny body language- it is very helpful to a first time bunny owner!


                                                          • Irina
                                                            Participant
                                                            290 posts Send Private Message

                                                              I wonder if It would be if any benefit to do longer sessions? Or would two or more sessions per day be better than one really long one?

                                                              I am going to try the 2ftx3ft cage tomorrow, as I just saw how time consuming and awkward, it would be to dismantle a pen. I suppose there is a limit to how long they can be in there without hay or water. Perhaps if things go well, I can put some in after 40 minutes or so. Opinions?


                                                            • MoveDiagonally
                                                              Participant
                                                              2361 posts Send Private Message

                                                                With your bunnies I think longer session would work out well. They seem to have more issues at the beginning and calm down and relax with each other as the session goes on. I think hay and water should be okay to add into the situation. Usually the things that cause the most issues are litter boxes and veggies/pellets.


                                                              • Irina
                                                                Participant
                                                                290 posts Send Private Message

                                                                  I think the same, but I do worry if it would stress Butterscotch a lot. He seems to sit/lie still after the first few minutes… Which is when the aggression seems to die down. I wonder if he thinks he has to stay still to avoid being nipped at? It is hard to know when to intervene- something that may be commonplace for you may seem horrible to me. So, when I saw Tofu pull out some fur, I put my hand between them, without even thinking about it- now I think I should probably not be doing that?! Are there specific things we look for to know when it is getting out of hand? Is nipping ok? Fur pulling? Chasing? Biting? I am concerned that the smaller space will escalate that to a point, but the bigger space allows them to ignore eachother so much if the time. If they do get really aggressive, would turning on the vacum help? Could I “stress” them to much? Sorry for all the questions…. It is hard to know the right thing to do… Thanks.


                                                                • MoveDiagonally
                                                                  Participant
                                                                  2361 posts Send Private Message

                                                                    Fur pulling and chasing are lower on the scale of aggression. Intervening is fine but I would usually give them a bit to try to work it out before getting involved. Any lunging, boxing, kicking, growling, etc… We would intervene pretty quickly. If they get out of hand in the smaller space you could try the vacuum, spray bottle, or shaking/rattling the cage.

                                                                    I wouldn’t worry about stressing too much right now. When my rabbits were going through a rough patch I would do entire sessions in a laundry basket and shake it whenever they showed aggression. Later I would use a cube made of NIC to stress bond them when they didn’t get along. I have pictures of this on my old trio thread. If you want to check it out it’s here:
                                                                    https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/aft/125145/Default.aspx


                                                                  • Irina
                                                                    Participant
                                                                    290 posts Send Private Message

                                                                      Update: I blocked off an area in the living room with 2 sofas- the space is approximately 3ftx3ft. Both bunnies have been in there for a little over two hours. There has been absolutely no aggression! Tofu did not even do his usual nips/fur pulls at the start! Butterscotch groomed Tofu without being asked! They fell asleep together after about one hour, so I put in some hay and water. That went well, so I added a litter box, pellets and some lettuce. It has gone well. I don’t think Butterscotch has used the litter box yet, but they have shared everything else. They are cuddly, and Butterscotch even did a flop! He seems much more relaxed around Tofu. Tofu even groomed butterscotch a little! They are grooming themselves too which I think is a sign they are comfortable together?

                                                                      So, what now? I will keep them
                                                                      Here for another hour or so… Should I try again with a larger area tomorrow? When do I know I can move to the next step? What is the next step- is it their permanent pen (rearranged so they think it is different? I would be joining the two pens they have now- we swap pens every day, so they both smell like both buns). I am very excited that things seem to be going so well- but don’t want to get my hopes up prematurely! Thoughts?


                                                                    • MoveDiagonally
                                                                      Participant
                                                                      2361 posts Send Private Message

                                                                        Sounds like things are going really well! 

                                                                        If I was bonding I think I would move on to cementing. I would put them together as you did today with food/litter/etc… and see how it goes. If they do as well as they did today I would combine, re-arrange, and deep clean what will be thier shared habitat and move them in. Cementing requires at least 24 hours of supervision. This doesn't men you have to be tethered to the area but you'll want to stay in ear shot (this includes sleeping near the pen). After 24 hours of no fighting and cohabitation I would consider them bonded. 

                                                                        Once you start the cementing process and they've been together for a long time it's not a good idea to separate them even if they fight. Instead it's better to stress bond and continue the session. The exception to this is if you feel like serious harm will come to either rabbit. Any fighting/stress bonding resets the 24 hour cementing unfortunately. I don't think you'll have many issues with this because your rabbits seem to be doing great. 

                                                                        If you don't have the time or don't feel ready to go through the cementing process I would keep doing what you're doing until you do.  


                                                                      • Irina
                                                                        Participant
                                                                        290 posts Send Private Message

                                                                          So- I do the same thing tomorrow morning- if all is well, then “cement”. I can sleep downstairs tomorrow night… But will have to leave twice to drop/pick up children from school. About 1 hour each time. Do I separate them during that time, or does that mess it up? I could bring them with me in a carrier- but Butterscotch is terrified of the carrier/car due to neutering/seizures ect- so would rather not do that. With young children, and a husband who works, I don’t know if I can ever have a full 24 hours without any interruption. Weekends are worse as my husband works and I have to look after the kids. Ideas?


                                                                        • Irina
                                                                          Participant
                                                                          290 posts Send Private Message

                                                                            Also- as it stands, Shadow’s cage adjoins the two that the boys are using. When I merge their two- can I keep Shadow where she is? Would be a lot easier! There has been no aggression with either boy and Shadow, or vice versa. I would think that would continue? Thanks again and once again, sorry for all the questions- I don’t want to overlook something!


                                                                          • MoveDiagonally
                                                                            Participant
                                                                            2361 posts Send Private Message

                                                                              I think Shadow will be okay where she is for now. If it causes a problem at a later point then you’d want to move her but for now it doesn’t seem to be causing any issues.

                                                                              Hm… I’m a bit conflicted with what do do during the hours you are away. I don’t think the carrier is necessary and because Butterscotch has such an intense fear of it right now it might do more harm then good. My best advice would be to start cementing after you drop your children off, separate briefly when you pick them up, and then by the next morning you should have a good idea of how they’re doing. At that point you’re close to the 24 hours so if they haven’t fought they would probably be safe to leave together when you drop them off/pick them up. That’s my feeling on it but definitely go with your instincts when it comes to leaving them alone unsupervised for the first time.


                                                                            • Irina
                                                                              Participant
                                                                              290 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                That sounds manageable. Are there any advantages and/or disadvantages to cementing right away vs doing more bonding sessions? Am I going too fast?


                                                                              • Irina
                                                                                Participant
                                                                                290 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                  Also- thank you!!! For spending soooo much time helping me! I would not know what to do otherwise! Please know it is very much appreciated!


                                                                                • MoveDiagonally
                                                                                  Participant
                                                                                  2361 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                    I’m glad to have been able to help.

                                                                                    I do tend to take a more aggressive approach to bonding than some so having more sessions in semi neutral areas before bonding won’t hurt the situation if you feel like things are going to quickly. Bonding can take varying amounts of time. Just through reading this forum I’ve seen bonding take 3 days to a year! It really depends on the individual rabbits and how comfortable the human component is with it all. You seem to have really good instincts when it comes to bonding so I would trust them and move forward when you think everyone is ready. You know them best!


                                                                                  • Irina
                                                                                    Participant
                                                                                    290 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                      Ok- I will give it a go if all goes well in the living room
                                                                                      Again tomorrow! If they do fight once they are in their pen, use the same rules for intervening? And if I have to intervene, I start the 24 hours all over again? What if I never get to leave the living room?

                                                                                      I may even let the kids play hookie and have a sleep over in the living room! I will post progress! Fingers crossed!


                                                                                    • MoveDiagonally
                                                                                      Participant
                                                                                      2361 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                        Same rules for intervening and hopefully they’ll follow the same pattern they have been and if they have any issues it’s only in the beginning!

                                                                                        For cleaning the area I would wipe down their stuff with 50/50 vinegar and water. If your floors are carpeted sprinkling baking soda and vacuuming it up can remove any lingering smells (non carpet the 50/50 vinegar/water works too). Moving stuff around and cleaning can make it feel like a “new” area and make things easier.

                                                                                        Good luck!


                                                                                      • Irina
                                                                                        Participant
                                                                                        290 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                          Do I need to wipe down everything? As in litter boxes, food dishes/water bowls/hay feeders etc? Even though we have been swapping cages every day for a week or more? I will do it if it is needed. Do I put new litter in the boxes or mix the two together so they have both of their smells? Obviously chew toys/grass mats are left as is…?

                                                                                          Perhaps if I made my entire house their new pen… Imagine how clean it would be!!! Ha!

                                                                                          Thanks again!


                                                                                        • MoveDiagonally
                                                                                          Participant
                                                                                          2361 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                            It's usually a good idea to give the area a good cleaning to remove some of the existing territory smells. The goal is to make the new territory as neutral as possible so neither think of anything as belonging to them. Chew toys and mats should be fine… I never worried about food bowls or water dishes because I used them in bonding sessions. Mostly I sprayed the bottom of their pens with vinegar and cleaned the flooring really well. Litter boxes that had never been shared I cleaned out with vinegar (I do it once week anyway). I put down freshly washed blankets (I put the down in their cages normally). Stuff like that. I also re-arranged their pens so that things were a bit "different". 


                                                                                          • Irina
                                                                                            Participant
                                                                                            290 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                              A couple of other things: do I use two litter boxes/hay feeders/feeding stations, or one of each so they share? Do I put their cottontail cottage in the new pen right away?(It is currently in one if the pens that they are swapping). Or do I just start with basics:food, water, hay, greens, blanket to sleep on for each? Add mazes and tunnels later? And if it doesn’t matter, feel free to tell me I am overthinking it…


                                                                                            • MoveDiagonally
                                                                                              Participant
                                                                                              2361 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                                I think leaving out the mazes and tunnels would be a good idea just so they can’t hide and have to interact while they’re cementing. Other toys should be alright. I would have everything else set up like it will be when they live together (litter boxes, food bowls, etc).


                                                                                              • Irina
                                                                                                Participant
                                                                                                290 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                                  Hello! So we are “cementing” the bond! Tofu and Butterscotch were on the living room (sectioned off space 8ftx3ft) for three hours this morning- it was great- continuation of yesterday- no aggression- just grooming (a little from Tofu to Buttercotch too), eating pellets/hay together, sharing lettuce and apple pieces. We moved directly to their permanent, rearranged pen around 4 hours ago. They did great! Ran around exploring And did many binkies! They ate hay, sat in the litter box, groomed each other…after an hour or so, they settled down- Butterscotch lying/sleeping on his tower bed, and Tofu lying/sleeping on a blanket. All good, but I wonder if their pen is too big for “cementing”. It is 4ft x 12ft. They did interact and run around together at first- but now resting in opposite ends if the pen. Technically they could avoid each other if they wanted to… I suppose we will see if they hang out when they wake up… I hadn’t thought it could be too big. Any thoughts? I will wait and see how it goes… But there is no easy way to make the pen smaller, other then making it 4ftx4ft- which is way too small….


                                                                                                • MoveDiagonally
                                                                                                  Participant
                                                                                                  2361 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                                    They seem to be interacting well so I think the pen size sounds fine

                                                                                                    How exciting!


                                                                                                  • Irina
                                                                                                    Participant
                                                                                                    290 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                                      It is exciting! I have a question though… Tofu seems to be grooming or ? Rooting at Butterscotch’s bum area. Looks like he is digging for something. Butterscotch sits there relaxed until he suddenly jumps and moves away. Tofu sometimes keeps trying to get to his bum, and it has irritated Butterscotch a few times… Causing him to leave the area. When Tofu comes back later, he doesn’t run away…but seems antsy if Tofu goes around to his bum. I checked Butterscotch to see if he had any mats or poo stuck that Tofu might be trying to get at, but cannot find anything. Is this a dominance thing?is he nipping him? I have no idea what it could be- just looks like a bit if aggressive grooming that may have gone too far? But he keeps doing it… Any ideas?


                                                                                                    • Irina
                                                                                                      Participant
                                                                                                      290 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                                        Perhaps when one has spent 12 hours watching bunnies, one starts to worry about things unnecessarily. So… I am wondering if Butterscotch is ok. He has spent most if the afternoon sleeping/resting- a little bit less active than Tofu … Which may be normal for him… But when he did come out to eat pellets, Tofu came over- did not do anything to him at all- but Butters itch ran and hid under his tower bed. So input the bowl of pellets there with him and he are some. When Tofu came over, Butters itch did not run away or anything, but didn’t come out either. Throughout the afternoon, Tofu flopped beside him a few times, but Butters itch didn’t really react. Other then the Bum ?grooming mentioned above, there has not been anything untoward- and that has not happened for over an hour either. Does this mean something? Is Butterscotch just taking more time to get used I the new living setup? When he was resting this afternoon- he was flopped and stretched out- did not seem scared… Help?


                                                                                                      • Irina
                                                                                                        Participant
                                                                                                        290 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                                          Just to be sure- there was a shirt chase a little while ago- maybe around the pen once- they sorted it out on their own- no fighting/biting etc- I did not interfere, so I don’t have to reset the 24 hours for cementing, right? Fingers crossed!?


                                                                                                        • MoveDiagonally
                                                                                                          Participant
                                                                                                          2361 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                                            The butt nipping sounds like the bunny version of “You’re in my way, move!”. My bonded rabbits do this to each other sometimes so as long as it’s not causing any fights I don’t think it’s an issue. On Butterscotch being less active. I think it could just be adjustment to the new living set up and new roommate.

                                                                                                            Since it was just a little chase and they worked it out I think you’re okay on resetting the timer. Usually what “resets” the timer is having problems bad enough that they require intervention. It’s good when they resolve stuff on their own because it means they’re figuring out how to work out their own problems. The main purpose of cementing is to make sure they can be trusted not to hurt each other when humans aren’t around.


                                                                                                          • Irina
                                                                                                            Participant
                                                                                                            290 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                                              That would make sense- but it is done mostly when they are lying together and Tofu seems to be grooming Butterscotch’s bum- it is not when Tifu is trying to get by or anything… It has happened a couple if times when Butterscotch has been grooming Tofu’s bum as well,.. In any case, does not sound too serious- I will just keep an eye out to see what happens.

                                                                                                              Otherwise, at the end if this 24 hours, does that mean
                                                                                                              The two little buns can be trusted, and can be left alone? (Sleeping on the floor next to three rabbits and two guinea pigs is not exactly restorative… My bed would be soo nice….)

                                                                                                              Also, I normally let them out of their pens individually for okay time in the living room. Can I start letting them out together? Starting today? And when would you think it is ok to put their maze/cottontail cottage in their pen?

                                                                                                              Lastly, how long do I have to wait for their bond to be secure before adding Shadow? (Shadow will be spayed in about 4 weeks, and will wait 4 weeks after that for her to be ready- so at least two months from now). Is two months long enough for the boys’ bond to be good, and it is safe to try And add a third?

                                                                                                              Thank you again for all the help!


                                                                                                            • Irina
                                                                                                              Participant
                                                                                                              290 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                                                Another thing- there have been a couple if chases overnight- just once around the cage- no biting or fur pulling- Tofu was chasing Butterscotch- but I don’t know if it was for play it not. It does scare Butterscotch when it happens, but he just flops onto his tower bed afterwards- not looking concerned. I don’t know if I should be concerned or not. As I mentioned throughout the bonding- Butterscotch has always been a little more anxious- even seemed scared sometimes when he was alone
                                                                                                                in his pen. He is definitely somewhat intimidated by Tofu, although there has been very little aggression on Tofu’s part. Is this normal for the submissive bunny? Will he get more comfortable with time? As I said, Butterscotch is spending a lot of time on his tower bed- but when he is there, he is grooming himself or he is flopped/stretched out looking pretty relaxed. He dies go to the litter box, and will come out for pellets/greens- he just seems antsy when he does it- and if Tofu comes too close too fast- he goes back up on his bed. Tofu has gone up there and flopped beside Butterscotch… So… What does it all mean?


                                                                                                              • MoveDiagonally
                                                                                                                Participant
                                                                                                                2361 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                                                  How are they doing now?

                                                                                                                  I think Butterscotch’s behavior is likely more about him and less about Tofu. From what you’ve said before, Butterscotch is a bit of a nervous bunny. He might just need more time to get used to having Tofu around because the whole situation is pretty new. Is he’s still eating, drinking, and using the litter box?

                                                                                                                  Chases can be hard sometimes! I remember Tanlover, a member here that is a very experienced with bonding, taking about trying to tell the difference between playing chases and aggressive chases. Was Tofu’s body language aggressive during the chase? Because Butterscotch is timid even a play chase might spook him but he does seem to recover quickly!

                                                                                                                  Calling two or more bunnies officially bonded is not my strong suit at all! I get so paranoid about leaving my bunnies alone for the first time. It’s going to come down to you and what you’re observing. It sounds like you haven’t had to intervene with them so they’re doing really well! They’re likely still adjusting. Once they are bonded they can do everything together. Two months after should be a good time frame if the boys are doing well.


                                                                                                                • Irina
                                                                                                                  Participant
                                                                                                                  290 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                                                    They are doing fine- I think. Tofu is definitely happy. Butterscotch still lounging around- not coming out as much as I would like- hanging out on his bed or under it. There are pellets and water there, as well as hay, and he is also eating apple and carrots and greens when I give it to him. I have seen him in the litterbox a few times, but not as much as I would think he would normally be there (I put two in the pen in case they have issues…). Throughout the night he was out more. I think it is that he is more nervous and takes longer to adjust- I would just hate to think he is living in fear!

                                                                                                                    As for the chases- I don’t know about Tofu’s body language- he goes so fast and they were running up onto the beds and hopping over hay feeders… I will pay more attention if it happens again.

                                                                                                                    I guess I just don’t know what to expect. Should they be interacting all the time? Because they definitely do not. They are usually in different places in the pen (again wondering if it is too big)- actually that is not true, Butterscotch is usually in the same general area, and Tofu wanders. Is this ok- or should they be interacting more to know the bond is good? There are times when they do cuddle together as well- just not as often as I would have thought.

                                                                                                                    Lastly, when can they start being let out to play together? What about mazes and tunnels in their pen- would that be a good thing now- may interact more? Thanks.


                                                                                                                  • MoveDiagonally
                                                                                                                    Participant
                                                                                                                    2361 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                                                      Bonded rabbits aren’t always super cuddly. In my trio I have Monty, Dexter, and Penny. Penny and Dexter were my first bonded pair and they adore each other. Love to cuddle and hang out. Monty is the bunny I added to make my trio. Monty and Dexter love each other and hang out and snuggle. Penny and Monty don’t have that relationship at all. They co-exist and occasionally flop around together but no where near the affection level of the other combinations. Previously it seemed like Shadow got along well with both so my speculation is that Shadow will likely be your Dexter (loves and loved by everyone). Your boys may not ever be totally into each other but that doesn’t mean can’t be happy living together and co-existing.

                                                                                                                      Do you think Butterscotch is progressively getting more comfortable?

                                                                                                                      I think you could put the tunnels and maze back whenever you feel comfortable. If they cause an issue you can always remove them but more stuff to do might also relax Butterscotch. I’m not sure how much he played in stuff like that before. After you think they are bonded I would kind of leave them be for a couple days to really settle in before letting them loose for out of cage time.


                                                                                                                    • Irina
                                                                                                                      Participant
                                                                                                                      290 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                                                        That is what I wanted to know! I figured there could be more and less cuddly bonds- but wanted to be sure it wasn’t bad that they were not interacting that much.

                                                                                                                        I guess Butterscotch is more comfortable- it is so hard to know, as he was just over 10 weeks when Tofu started mounting him and stressing him out, then 2 weeks later had surgery with complications leading to a long recovery. I don’t really know what he is like because he has been through so much. My sense is that he may be more of a loner? He seems to like being quieter, hanging out in tunnels or his cottontail cottage. So this may just be normal for him, whereas Tofu is big and fast and playful- so probably not a match made in heaven. I will add a maze or tunnel and see if he comes out more. Thanks again!


                                                                                                                      • Irina
                                                                                                                        Participant
                                                                                                                        290 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                                                          Another thing that I have noticed is that Butterscotch seems to flop a lot more, or stretch out more. He is not always “wound tightly” – sitting in a little ball. Which I believe means he is relaxed. Also, he is much more cuddly with me. Wants to be petted, and will sit on my lap for some time while I love him. He used to do that when he was little- then became antsy with Tofu mounting him etc. So everything seems good with the exception that he is not venturing away from his little corner too often. There is just no way to know if he is there because that’s where he wants to be or because he is too freaked out to go further.


                                                                                                                        • MoveDiagonally
                                                                                                                          Participant
                                                                                                                          2361 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                                                            Butterscotch might just be a bit more of a homebody. They’re not fighting and from what you’ve said they don’t seem to be territorial over any particular area. They seem to be sharing and Butterscotch might open up and venture out more as he gets more comfortable. Super stressed out bunnies don’t usually eat very much and he seems to be doing well enough in the situation to flop and eat. I would just keep an eye on Butterscotch’s comfort level but that doesn’t require constant supervision.

                                                                                                                            Have you left them alone yet? Do you think they’re officially bonded?


                                                                                                                          • Irina
                                                                                                                            Participant
                                                                                                                            290 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                                                              I left them alone for 1 hour this morning, then another 2 hour period later on. All seems to have gone well. There is no evidence of anything different or any fighting etc,

                                                                                                                              I have NO IDEA if they are officially bonded! What does that mean? How do I know? What are the criteria used to make that decision? When did you consider yours officially bonded?


                                                                                                                            • MoveDiagonally
                                                                                                                              Participant
                                                                                                                              2361 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                                                                Basically, when they aren’t fighting and co-existing together for 24 or more hours in their shared space I call them bonded. I say “officially bonded” when I’m “Okay, I’m done with the heavy lifting, they’ll be okay”. Sometimes there are kinks to work out but when the constant supervision and focus isn’t needed anymore I “call it”.

                                                                                                                                I hope that made sense. Lol.


                                                                                                                              • Irina
                                                                                                                                Participant
                                                                                                                                290 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                                                                  Ok – so I am more or less there. I have not seen anything worrisome in terms of aggression. I feel I can leave them and they will be ok- from all that I have seen- I know there are no guarantees! My only concern right now is seeing Butterscotch more out and about, more active. However, my gut tells me that he is ok/ just taking time to adjust. When he was first moved downstairs after his surgery, if took him almost an entire week to start coming out of his Cottontail Cottage- (he wouldn’t even want to come out of his pen for his playtime….)- and then he was ok. So provided all else is good (as in still eating, drinking, flopping…) I will give him a week to see how it goes. I also noticed during that week where he seemed to hide in his cottage (bottom or mid floor- nothing where he could be seen)- every morning I would find TONS of poo on the top level of his cottage, and on the floor in front of it. So he obviously was out more at night than I saw in the day (I know they are more active morning and evening and sleep daytime…but he never came out- even morning it evening). Along the same lines, I saw him out and about quite a bit through the night last night- throughout the entire pen- so maybe it’s just the way he rolls!

                                                                                                                                  I will post progress every day until there is nothing left to say, and all
                                                                                                                                  Is well… Hopefully soon!


                                                                                                                                • Irina
                                                                                                                                  Participant
                                                                                                                                  290 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                                                                    Butterscotch is out!! He has been running around doing mini 500s and binkying all around his pen! He even lured Tofu into mini play chase! He has been in both litter boxes, eating lots of pellets/greens/carrot/hay and a couple of raisins. He and Tofu were exploring their hopper hideaway together, and had a Few snuggle sessions with some flops and grooming! I think he us coming around and getting used to his new environment! Sooo happy!!!


                                                                                                                                  • MoveDiagonally
                                                                                                                                    Participant
                                                                                                                                    2361 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                                                                      Wonderful!

                                                                                                                                      Glad he came around Congrats! I love your new avatar, they're adorable. 


                                                                                                                                    • Irina
                                                                                                                                      Participant
                                                                                                                                      290 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                                                                        Thank you so much for all your help Move Diagonally! I will start a new thread with any issues- I guessing am no longer “starting pre-bonding”!
                                                                                                                                        Cheers!

                                                                                                                                    Viewing 64 reply threads
                                                                                                                                    • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

                                                                                                                                    Forum BONDING Starting pre- bonding. Suggestions please!