E. Cuniculi / Upper Resp. Infection (Head Swaying)

[tanlover14]

As most of you know – we rescued a baby bun from a pet store a few weeks ago.

 

Baby Bun (now Nora) had her first vet check-up 2 weeks ago today.  We took her immediately because she was sneezing and her sneezing was getting progressively worse.  We also noticed a small amount of head swaying.  The vet prescribed her Trimethoprim-Sulfa  (generic brand of Bactrim) as she suspected an upper respiratory infection.  She has just finished her 2-week dose of the meds (this morning) and most of the sneezing has stopped (yesterday she sneezed twice that I know of and I’ve been with her since I got up today and no sneezing).  But the head swaying has continued.  Possibly have even gotten worse. 

Could the head swaying be caused by the upper respiratory infection?  I have talked to the lady who runs the rescue Nora is currently a foster through and she believes the vet will most likely prescribe Panacur for her?  If I’m not mistaken this is an E. Cuniculi medication? 

 

I have also read that head swaying can be from poor eyesight – but mainly this happens in red-eyed buns.  I’m really confused as what it could be.  BUT we have a vet appointment this coming up Saturday at 10am for Nora.  But I would really like to go in there knowing the different options/opinions so I can discuss them with the vet.

 

**I also have a video of the head swaying – I tried to add it through the attachment uploader but it said the file was not supported – anyone know how I could upload it so I can show the video for a better understanding of what she is doing?**

 

[AnnaW]

Maybe upload it to Youtube and then send us the link to it on there? x

[Sarita]

It could be EC certainly or a URI – I think those symptoms are so much the same really that it can be difficult to know what it is and many vets just treat for both to be on the safe side.

As for eyesight – most rabbits don’t have great eyesight – it is more commonly witnessed though for red eyed whites to seem to sway and have problems focusing but I think it is mainly due to sensitivity from the light rather than poor eyesight.

Now I do understand that many lionhead rabbits have seizures and I’m not entirely certain what the cause of this is – possibly EC – I realize that is not her problem – seizures but it is something that seems to be more specific to this breed.

As for the youtube – I believe you have a file to embed the photo and you copy/paste that link if I remember correctly.

[tanlover14]

Perfect idea, thanks Anna!

[tanlover14]

Thanks you two!   So there’s the video –

After talking more to the rescue, we made her an appointment for 7:30 tonight to be looked at.  She thinks it will be better to get her in ASAP since we don’t know what the cause is rather than waiting.  

It’s very interesting to me how she does it though.  She doesn’t sway when she’s eating or walking.  It’s almost like she zones out on something, completely stops, and then starts swaying.  I forgot to mention that in my original post – could that mean anything different?

[tanlover14]

Sarita – when we read about the eyesight – we tried to do a “home-check”, LOL.  Not that we know anything about rabbits and their eyesight but we looked to see if her pupils were dilating when the light was shown at her.  Both eyes did.  With no head swaying, so if it were the sensitivity to light causing it, I would THINK (in my unknowledgable opinion) that she would‘ve swayed to attempt to focus better?  Which leads me to think it’s something that needs to be medically treated and not related to eyesight. 

[Sarita]

It does make me wondering after looking at the video if it’s not just a vision problem – it does seem like she’s trying to focus. But then again that could be due to her URI too. Even if the vet suspects EC, it would be just as good to treat it rather than not, if that is what the vet recommends doing.

[bunnylova123]

Awww, she looks just like funny bunny. Don’t worry, I’m pretty sure it’s a non life threatening parasite, I can’t remember the full name, but it’s totally safe. It does partly affect eye sight though. I had a bunny who had that his whole life, it doesn’t affect them at all, it’s just cute! It’s more common in albinos though, but it can affect anybun. Also panacur isn’t a e cunculi medication, it’s a wormer. However the vet also said that although she was pretty sure it was safe, typically people don’t do post mortems on bunnies, so it could be the cause of some deaths, I don’t want to worry you though.

[AnnaW]

From my perspective it looks like a vision problem too, but i have no experience of EC so cant comment on that. The vet probably knows best, hope the poor little thing gets better soon! Sending hugs xx

[tanlover14]

http://www.msd-animal-health.co.uk/products_public/panacur_rabbit/010_overview.aspx

^  This was the website where I read it was used to treat E.C.  

I’m not positive it’s not life-threatening at all.  I’ve seen many bad cases of it on-line and the breeder we got our first bunnies from had a bad case of it on her website where she was treating her bunny.  I know the head-tilt can get pretty bad – where they are flipping over and have difficulty eating.  Those side effects alone make it a non-particarly safe in a bunny that is showing symptoms.  

Sarita, thats what we initially thought too!  It really does look like she is just attempting to focus on things.  Like she needs to think to focus or something.  It’s been really confusing to me.  But I do know I want to make sure she is okay.  If it IS something like eyesight we will help her if she ever becomes disabled, but if it IS something treatable then I want it treated.  I’ve read that quite a high percentage of bunnies have EC and that usually it is something that creates a weak immune system that allows the EC to become symptomatic.  Any truth to that?  

[bunnylova123]

Just found out it gets rid of parasites and worms ( like E.C ). What Clent had wasn’t E.C, or head tilt, it was something different and rarer. It is just necessarily focusing though.

[Sarita]

Here is a good article from Dana Krempels on treatments for head tilt and EC:

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/tilt.html 

[tanlover14]

Just got back from the vets –

 

The vet is pretty sure she is swaying due to vision.  But said it is hard to determine in bunnies.  But that red-eyed bunnies just have a tendency to do this.  She is going to put my video online for other vets to comment on and see if they give the same prognosis.   But she thought a lot of Nora’s swaying LOOKS like vision.  Such as when she is focusing.   So we will see what the other vets opinions are.

 

We are going to be watching her sneezing since it has decreased so much before putting her on another one antibotic as she thinks she is fine now. 

So thankfully, hopefully – her head swaying is nothing more than vision! 

[BinkyBunny]

Edited: I had asked you if you noticed this before — and duh, you already gave those details. I was just reading to fast, so I modified my answer a bit. 

When I first saw that video, it did remind me of what some REW do. I saw it many times at a rabbit rescue I used to volunteer for. They call it “scanning” Not sure why they do it, but it is supposed to help them access/view all that’s around them. – more so when stressed. Sometimes new bunnies that were very nervous would do it at first too, but it would then stop after settling in. Is this something that recently started after the nightmare you have been through. Just wondering if stress may be part of it. Now with you being relocated etc and all that happened, you could be noticing it more if it this bunny’s way of assessing the new place. Were your bunnies affected by the smoke from the fire? Wondering about eye irritation — though I would assume the vet would have checked that.

Definitely keep us updated with this!

[Roberta]

Would the long hair around her face and eyes be interfering in her range of vision if she is trying to look at you or something straight on ?

[tanlover14]

Hey there guys – thanks for the responses!  

BB, that’s what the vet thought also.  That she is scanning.  She said she studied up on some videos of REW buns scanning and she thought it looked exactly like that.  Now, side note:  Nora DOES actually have reddish eyes.  When she’s in the darkness you can’t really see the red, they look gray.  But then when the light hits them they are definitely red tinted.  I wonder if this is what is causing the scanning, like in the REW buns?  I know the vet said no one really knows why they do it.  But she has done this since day one, I have never noticed it going away or lessening.  And we have watched her pretty constantly as I was afraid her head might start to tilt.   She was only with us for 2 weeks before the fire though.  So this is her third week with us and we are still displaced at my boyfriends dads house – so it’s really hard to tell.  She has become much more comfortable with us though for sure.  She doesn’t run when we come up to her and she cuddled with me on the couch for two hours the other day while I read a book.  She’s still a tiny bit skittish.  But otherwise I would say she’s settling in quite normally.  I will have to watch her over the coming weeks and see if it decreases.  

Roberta, I hadn’t thought of that but I’ll attach a picture below.  Her face is very much like a Wooly where a good portion of her face is actually shorter hair.  Especially around her eyes it’s particularly short.  Her hair sprouts out from one spot (about the size of a nickel) on her nose, lower down on her cheeks, and high up on her head.  Simba definitely has more fur in his eyes than her.   I really can’t tell – I do know she doesn’t seem to be in any pain.  Although she sneezed a good 5 times this morning.  UGH.    I was so hoping the medicine would’ve fixed her.  The vet told us to keep an eye on her and if she started sneezing more again we’d put her on more meds.  

 

This whole situation just makes me so mad.  That horrible pet store not taking her to a vet when she should’ve been.  How does no one notice these things about her? Her constant sneezing, her head swaying.  If you’re going to sell animals, at least have a little knowledge about them!  Good grief.

 

 

But we did have some GOOD NEWS!  Baby girl has finally begun putting on a little weight since she was so skinny when we first brought her in.  She’s progressing very well and the vet was very happy to see that her fur is back to being soft rather than rough and matted when we first got her.  And some of her bald spots are finally going away (bald spots we created when we cut some of the mats that wouldn’t comb out off from her). 

[tanlover14]

Also, thanks for the article Sarita!  I read the whole thing before we went to the vets so I could have a good sense of what we were dealing with before going. It was really helpful.

 

I talked to the vet about the different possibilities and I’ll update everyone when the vet gets back to me about the consensus of the video I sent her from the other vets she knows! 

 

[jerseygirl]

Nora DOES actually have reddish eyes. When she’s in the darkness you can’t really see the red, they look gray. But then when the light hits them they are definitely red tinted. I wonder if this is what is causing the scanning, like in the REW buns?

Yes!
I was just coming back to this thread to ask you this lol. I was doing some reading. A couple pages mentioned REWs and rabbits with a Ruby cast to the eye have a tendency to scanning. Also possibly those that have a REW parent? Not sure if that’s the reason they get the eyes with the ruby cast
There was also mention that chocolate and lilac rabbits often have this ruby cast to the eye. I’m still trying to figure out what Nora’s colour is! I was thinking smoke pearl when you 1st introduced her but now…blue tort maybe? Have you identified it TL?

[jerseygirl]

Re Scanning; I found these 2 descriptions helped me understand it a little better.

Some rabbits have an odd behavior called “scanning.” It seems to be most prevalent in albino rabbits, but no one knows why. It may be an exaggerated motion associated with the normal nystagmus of the eyes.

Nystagmus is the natural, microscopic movement that every vertebrate eye makes constantly–including ours! It’s what makes vision possible. As our eyes microscopically change the visual field at this tiny level, constantly (we are not aware of it, and you can’t see or feel it), the eye’s photoreceptors are constantly stimulated by the ever-changing light hitting them. This is why we can see. Without nystagmus, we would not be able to see.

Some people have suggested that albino rabbit “scanning” (the side to side movement of the head you’re seeing) is an “outgrowth” of normal nystagmus–but no one knows for sure.

But the bottom line is that it’s a genetic trait that is not harmful, and it’s nothing to worry about. -Dana Krempels
Source: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/albino-rabbits-1.htm

**Please note: there is also a symptom called nystagmus which is more pronounced and owners can see the rapid eye movement in their rabbit. In those cases, vet attention is advised.

This was a less technical but still useful explanation on a message board.
http://pets.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/ShowBunnyList/message/46280

[tanlover14]

Thanks, Jerseygirl!  I actually haven’t even thought about her color!!  After just doing some research, I do believe she is self blue?  She has everything they include, including the blue-grey eyes.  When you look into her eyes directly – they look like the same color as her fur.  But as soon as you move to where light can shine into them, that’s when you notice the red gleam sort of part to her eyes.    Ruby cast sounds pretty perfect for what we noticed.  I was actually worried she had vision problems because of the strange “ruby gleam” her eyes gave off sometimes!  LOL.  So I wonder if she just acquired it from a parent.  I was sifting through some breeders photos of their babies with their parents of the self blues and a good number of them had a REW parent.

 

We found that response from Dana Krempels also!  And read up on it – which has helped put my worries down.  I know she said as long as the bun wasn’t experiencing other symptoms (but she still sneezing?) so that‘s where our worry also came from.   I just want Nora girl to be okay!  She‘s had such a difficult first few months of life. 

 

Another question:  So she is approximately three months old by our guesses.  The vet said she’s pretty bad at aging rabbits.  So I’m not quite positive.  She said she also has even less of a clue because she was so skinny when we first rescued and brought her in.  Do you guys think I should wait until I’m positive her sneezing has pretty much cleared up?  Or do you think it would be okay to start her on veggies now? 

 

I was leaning towards waiting as so much commotion has been happening lately – but she has taken everything really good.  And her appetite has been great.  I want to get her started on veggies before her spay so I can have something to entice her to eat with when she comes home.  But I suppose that won’t be until at least May.

 

UGH, baby bunnies!  I swear.  This is why we had decided no more babies.  LOL.

 

[Sarita]

I would start her on veggies slowly now – I see now reason to wait – it’s not going to affect her URI or anything and she probably would enjoy some fresh greens.

[tanlover14]

Thanks, Sarita.  Looks like I will pick her out a few pieces of the same lettuce in our spring mix tomorrow.  And let her have her first bite of veggies!  (We have had them on only spring mix since the explosion as it is easier to buy and quick to give them since we’ve been so hectic.)

 

After a talk with the lady who runs the rescue, we will be seeking a second opinion on Nora and her head scanning.  I‘ll let you know when the appointment is scheduled for after I make it (most likely tomorrow). 

[jerseygirl]

Do you notice if she does it in more dimly lit rooms?

The ruby gleam you describe, is that light hits the pupil? I’m thinking they all have red reflection from here if the eye is healthy. Do you know what I mean? Do you see that in your others?
I want to go test light on my crew now!

[LittlePuffyTail]

Just catching up on this thread and want to offer some (((((Get Well Vibes))))

Hopefully it`s something very mild and your vet will figure it out soon.

She`s so adorable!

[Deleted User]

Just saw your thread. I wanted to offer some healing vibes as well for Nora! ((((Heal)))) =]

You’re such a good bunmama TL!

[tanlover14]

Jersygirl, our house was pretty well lit up! So I don’t think the dimness is causing it. And so is where we are staying (only the basement where they are now has slightly dimmer light but not much) so I don’t believe it has to do with the dimness at all. And I don’t think I’ve ever noticed it in the other bunnies except when the light hits it JUST right – hers is WAYYYY more visible. I would say I see the red in her eyes more than I see her actual color, gray. I looked through my pics of her and I can’t find one with the ruby look. Although when I was downstairs taking a video of her earlier you could see it full-on. But I deleted all the videos since none came out very good.

Thanks for the healing vibes guys! We scheduled her with a new vet for a 2nd opinion, next Thursday (soonest they could get her in). I told the rescue but I’m not sure they will wait that long for an appointment with her. The head swaying has been bothering the lady who runs it – well has been worrying her.

I’m not sure if all this worrying between us is justified or not – but I know her sneezing was down to once a day (from what I could tell) and now it’s back up to three-four times a day again. Which also worries me as they took her off her meds. The vet she has been seeing is one through the rescue whom I had never heard of. The new vet we will be bringing her to I know is considered one of the best in the area for rabbits. He does a lot of low-cost clinic work for the rescues while having his own office too. We have offered to bring her to our vet and just pay full-out for the appointment (we have been paying for the others also but the rescue gets them low cost for their bunnies). But she is also hard to get into. As their rabbit person is VERY good too. If she begins to stop eating or I notice anything off about her – she will be headed to my personal vet for an emergency appointment though. My vet had no appointments open but came in early one day just so we could fit Fleury into an appointment so I know she would be fine. And I have a good relationship via email with her also. She is supposed to be going in for a spay in May but I’m not letting her get a spay if there’s any chance she may be sick. So I think a 2nd opinion will help put my mind more at ease also.

Thanks, SkippersMama!  My boyfriend tells me that too but I never sick of hearing it!   As goofy as they all are – they take up my heart.  Haha!

[jerseygirl]

Its true. You’re super diligent and your Fluffy babies are in great hands.

So has she had any nasal discharge with the sneezing?How quickly do you think her sneezing has progressed to multiple times since she came off the antibiotics?

Is there any left they could continue her on them longer? Provided your current vet advises it.

[tanlover14]

No nasal discharge that I can see – although the day before she went to the vet last time she had some discharge so the medicine may have helped.  The vet took her off the medicine (but she had completely finished it) and opted not to give her another treatment despite the continued few sneezes a day.  I’m going to keep periodically checking her nose though for discharge – if I see anything do I NEED to schedule another appointment before Thursday (if she is still eating and drinking and poo’ing fine) or should she be okay until Thursday?

She has begun sneezing quite a bit again.  I swear this morning when I checked on her there was only a few but when I went to cuddle with her this time – she had close to 10-15 sneezes within a 2-3 minute period.  Just spent a good hour with her trying to find a GOOD vet who could get her in tonight/tomorrow/this weekend.  But the holiday has everyone really booked up it seems.  And everything is closed Saturday and early Friday.    We have emergency vets but the last time we took one of the buns there no one knew anything about rabbits.  

Her vet appointment is scheduled for Thursday.  She’s eating, drinking, poo’ing fine.. but I still worry.  One of the vets is going to call me if they get a cancellation tonight so everyone and everybun keep your fingers and toes crossed for us!  

We had un-isolated her from the other bunnies (they are separated anyways) but they had x-pens set up close to each other.  With a barrier in between.  So when I noticed her sneezing getting worse I moved her far away from them to the other side of the room.   

I’m not sure I want her seeing this vet she has been going to anymore.  In my opinion (didn’t think of it at the time) she probably should’ve sent us home with more in case her sneezing continued.  Now finding someone to see her is just proving very, very difficult.  AND she has no meds until she can get seen.   Aaron and I agree it’s very possible it’s just scanning.. but after my feelings about the last visit with this vet, I’m not sure she knows much about rabbits outside their basic care, needs, and functions.  She clearly knew very little about scanning (or head swaying – as I read in Sarita’s article that head swayings #1 cause is an ear infection so shouldn’t she have checked her ears?).   I’m not happy with her.  And I would never let Nora get a spay through her – so I think it’s pointless to continue seeing her as a vet.  She couldn’t really age her at all.  And now I wonder if she’s even a girl!  LOL.  But her next appointment (for the 2nd opinion and the sneezing) is a different one so this may be a mute point I’m exhausting.  Haha! 

 

[jerseygirl]

I’m going to keep periodically checking her nose though for discharge – if I see anything do I NEED to schedule another appointment before Thursday (if she is still eating and drinking and poo’ing fine) or should she be okay until Thursday?

I would think that is fine to wait until thursday. If any discharge develops, you can clear it away to clear her nostrils until the appointment. It might not be a bad thing if off antibiotics if the new vet thinks doing a culture is worthwhile. Antibiotics can affect the results.

I don’t think you need to worry about head tilt at this point. That is more when they twist their head so one eye faces the ceiling, the other the floor. And their head stays in the tilted position. What Nora is doing definitely looks more like scanning. When I first watched the video, I thought she was asleep because when the movement stops she seems so much more alert. But Im not really sure if possible for that side to side scanning while sleeping. That wouldnt make sense if scanning is to do with vision.
It’s looks like she scans toward her right more. Does she always do that?

[tanlover14]

I noticed the scanning more to her right also Jersey.  

I e-mailed my normal vet for the other bunnies.  She thankfully responded back last night as she is on vacation in Mexico and thought, like you Jersey, that she would be fine waiting as long as her symptoms don’t drastically worsen and her head doesn’t tilt.  She is obviously giving very limited advice as she hasn’t seen Nora at all BUT her advice was – basically the only vets she trusts in the area to deal with EC or Pasturella would be the one we are scheduled with next Thursday and not to cancel that appointment even if she can be seen sooner elsewhere.  She thought it a little odd her ears were never thoroughly checked, especially with her symptoms of the head swaying.  She encouraged me to have her tested for EC before being introduced to the other bunnies since we’re not sure if she has always done the head sway/scanning or if this is something that came on – possibly from the resp. infection that triggered EC symptoms to come out.  She also hasn’t seen the video but I sent it to her in an email today when I responded back.  

 

Oh Nora girl… you sure do keep momma on her toes!

[tanlover14]

**Update**

 

So Miss Nora came back from her “vacation at the vets”, haha. 

She was gone for three days with the rescue so they could squeeze her in sooner with the vet we had been waiting for. 

 

They ended up putting her on Panacur as a precaution – since it has helped the head swaying movement in the past but simply as a precaution to see if it helps.  If not, then we are just going to assume it’s scanning.  

 

Her sneezing has lessened but if she continues to sneeze, they would like to flush her out or put her under and put a scope down her nose.    So hopefully she stops!  I haven’t heard her sneeze once since she’s been home though!  So good vibes for Nora!

[BinkyBunny]

Glad she was able to get into the vets. Also good that she’s sneezing less! Sending out positive vibes for Nora!

[LittlePuffyTail]

(((((((Nora))))))))

[Author]

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