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BINKYBUNNY FORUMS

Forum BEHAVIOR Please, please help me!

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    • luvmyhunybuny
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        First and foremost I am typing this through many tears. I am at a complete loss and I really need some guidance from everyone. I have mentioned on here, issues with Tillie’s behavior. I chalked it all up to her reaching sexual maturity. But it has been 6 weeks since her spay and things are not getting better, actually they seem to have gotten a bit worse.

        I am completely unable to pet her. Whenever I approach her she thumps and runs. It is such a chore when it is nail cutting time or grooming. She completely freaks out. When she is laying next to Toby and I bend down to pet him, she will honk at me and go after my hand. I can deal with this however tonight was just about a deal breaker. She and Toby were in the cottage. I laid down on floor and was talking softly to them both. Again, I reached in to pet Toby and she honked and went after my hand. After a bit I was able to pet her and they were both laying calmly, seemingly enjoying the pets. My son came over to show me something and laid down next to me. Tillie hopped out of her cottage and went over to him, sniffing. We thought she was actually wanting him to pet her. He had not even had chance to try and she bit him on the arm.
         
        Now I can understand if he was pestering her, but my kids do not do that with our buns and never have. They understand our animals need space too and respect that. We have taught our kids this from an early age (they are now 12 and 9).  But, he really had done nothing to prompt the bite. I know bunnies do not know ‘hate’ or how to be mean, but again, no visable reason for her to just bite him (poor kid was crushed, he is such a tender heart to begin with and this really has him very upset).
         
        What do I do? I do not want to get rid of her, but I also can not have an unpredictable bunny who is going to bite. Please tell me what I can do. This is killing me and making me so very, very sad. I can deal with her having an attitude and running from me. I cannot deal with her being aggressive and biting. And please, no bashing. I will not make hasty decisions. But I do expect a level of peace and harmony with ALL our animals and humans.


      • RabbitPam
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          Hi, I echo your request for no bashing, and want to assure you that all suggestions here will be made in a spirit of compassion with offers to help you to resolve this. It is difficult, I know. So let me start with two suggestions.

          First, please take her to the vet for a check up. A bunny will often be aggressive when there is some illness or condition that is bothering them, and they are the least able of the animals to communicate it to you. What you describe may be a clue. While some illnesses cause them to huddle and be lethargic, aggression can come from problems like chronic tooth problems that have developed, a sensitive area that you or your son may be touching (tummy, gas, internal growth) that can’t be seen. There are many things and bunnies are subtle, so ruling out something physical is wise. I know it’s also expensive, but if there is a physical problem, treatment will bring immediate relief to all of you.

          Second, if she is totally healthy, you can try clicker trainiing. It is quick, effective, and if you are persistant, can make a huge difference. Here is a link to the website, but I would recommend you buy the book on clicker training for rabbits. BB used to carry it in the store here, so check there for it. Otherwise, it’s available on Amazon I think. Here is the link to Karen Pryor’s website (she invented Clicker Training) showing the book I mean. You can read articles on working with rabbits that are listed in the margins to get a better idea. I own this because Sammy doesn’t like being held, picked up or touched in the back so I wanted to have a bit more control of getting her to go into her house easily. She responds well to this.

          http://www.clickertraining.com/node/28

          In a nutshell, except for learning a firm spoken “No”, a bunny will not respond well to any form of negative reprimand whatsoever. If you think of your son as a small predator (how an animal of his size would look to a bunny) that helps to understand how his “claws or paws” coming at her would make her afraid and defensive. If she can’t run, she can bite. Pets that are requested from her need to be more direct, ie. she puts her nose up to his still hand and pushes, then he can pet her face. But reaching for her is too scary at this stage. 

          When you reach into her house you are invading her safe space also, so she is saying “get out.” If you think of all reactions from bunnies as those from the bottom of the food chain, that’s their DNA talking, then you can get an idea of how many are fear-based responses regardless of how kind you have been. Trust is learned over many years, not days.

          But a bunny responds very, very well to positive reinforcement, ie. clicker training. So in steps, you teach her that with allowing hands to pet her she will get rewards like food treats. She can learn fast if she’s healthy, and she can understand that your hands, your son, you, all mean a treat might be coming if she behaves a certain way. Not behaving that way only results in no reward. NOT punishment. Just nothing good. So she will stop the behavior that doesn’t profit her to do, and start the behaviors that get her treats. Believe it or not, eventually you can eliminate the treat every time because getting petted is a form of a treat, as is verbal praise and affection. This take time on your part, but if you want her to stay in your family it is worth it. Just a little behavior modification can go a long way.

          I hope this helps. The theory in clicker training is so effective that it’s been tried on humans and works with them, too! A small ajustment, like not spreading your fingers out when you reach for the bunny (claws) but keeping your PALM UP at all times and fingers together can make a big difference. Try it.


        • Sarita
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            Pam gave some good advice.

            Tillie is also very young and even though she is spayed, she is still going through adolescence. I would also say that don’t let the one incident with her biting your son get you all upset. It honestly sounds like her behavior is predictible to me. You know she is going to bite when you are near her or she feels the threat of a pet. She sounds like she is very bonded to Toby as well and I suspect as she ages and feels more comfortable and secure, she won’t feel so threatened. Spaying will calm her hormones down, but it won’t stop her instinctual behaviors. Even though you don’t see a viable reason for her reaction, she must have felt some threat.

            It may be that Toby is the one to pet and Tillie is just the one to watch (at least for now) until she feels more secure.

            I know you wrote this at the height of your frustration too so no bashing. Hopefully writing it helped you calm down :~)


          • luvmyhunybuny
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              Thank you Pam and Sarita.

              Yes, Sarita, I did type out the above at the height of my frustration. Tillie has a knack of frustrating me easily over the last 4 months. She is such a beautiful bun with the worst attitude. There is a “rule” in our home. When an animal comes through our front door (with the exception for our fosters) we see it through until the end. Good, bad or indifferent. But I was upset last night after she bit my son. She has never bitten any of us before. Honking, yes. But no biting, ever.

              Toby loves pets, but he also feeds off of Tillie’s skittish behavior. She thumps and of course he runs too. And forget when they are laying next to each other … you simply cannot pet Toby. Tillie won’t have it.

              I am going to have Tillie checked out. Then I will give the clicker training a shot. Now to convince my sweet son that Tillie is really not the “devil bunny”. 😉


            • TriBun
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                Aww, LHB, I feel so bad. I too have a very sensitive son and knew exactly what you meant when you said, “poor kid was crushed.” I don’t have any suggestions (I believe RabbitPam covered it), but I wanted to give my *hugs* for having such a hard time right now.

                Let us know how the vet visit goes.


              • luvmyhunybuny
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                  Posted By TriBun on 09/21/2011 11:15 AM
                  Aww, LHB, I feel so bad. I too have a very sensitive son and knew exactly what you meant when you said, “poor kid was crushed.” I don’t have any suggestions (I believe RabbitPam covered it), but I wanted to give my *hugs* for having such a hard time right now.

                  Let us know how the vet visit goes.

                   

                  Thanks so much TriBun. I really don’t think Tillie is not feeling well, this is has been so typical of her, well expect for the biting. I am thinking maybe my son was ‘in the way’ and she wanted to get by. That is the only conclusion I can come to. But, I will be sure to have her looked over and I already have the clicker book and clicker ordered. Thanks again!!


                • RabbitPam
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                    Oh, hard to believe but I forgot to mention one thing: bunnies communicate with their teeth, but they need to get the hang of it. So she may want to push you out of the way by using her mouth, but the need to learn to set their teeth without breaking skin – something they do very well as adults.
                    So she may be talking to you with her mouth but have gone too far out of her own anger. If she touches you or him with her teeth and you don’t want her to, squeal in a high pitched voice. That is the noise a hurt bunny makes, and it will recognize it as a sign she has hurt you. It may not be her intention at times and she will back off. (Spockie always looked forlorn when I had to squeal and would seem to tippy toe back as if to say “I’ll be more careful with you now.”)


                  • Huckleberry
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                      This makes me so sad. It is so rough to feel like your bun isn’t working out. I am happy that you want to keep trying with her! Good job! You are setting a really good example for son, too.

                      How old is he? Is there any way that he would be able to understand how she thinks? Perhaps if you researched how teachers introduce rabbits into classrooms and found out how they introduce the subject? I am sure that once he realizes that she doesn’t mean to be “the devil bunny” but that she just might be scared or in pain that he will move past it. There are many classrooms out there that have pet rabbits in the classroom and I am sure that they would have information on the web somewhere about telling small children that the rabbit sees a human as a potential predator. Maybe you can give him some cilantro or parsley to give her. He can lay on the floor and hold one end of the stalk very still and let her nibble the other end. If he is laying on his belly on the floor and not making any quick movements or noises, she may relax a little more with him (over time).
                      Good luck!!!! and btw, my bun was “the devil bunny” too and to some extent still is. She very rarely comes to me for cuddles and spends a lot of time nipping me.


                    • luvmyhunybuny
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                        Posted By Huckleberry on 09/21/2011 11:45 AM
                        This makes me so sad. It is so rough to feel like your bun isn’t working out. I am happy that you want to keep trying with her! Good job! You are setting a really good example for son, too.

                        How old is he? Is there any way that he would be able to understand how she thinks? Perhaps if you researched how teachers introduce rabbits into classrooms and found out how they introduce the subject? I am sure that once he realizes that she doesn’t mean to be “the devil bunny” but that she just might be scared or in pain that he will move past it. There are many classrooms out there that have pet rabbits in the classroom and I am sure that they would have information on the web somewhere about telling small children that the rabbit sees a human as a potential predator. Maybe you can give him some cilantro or parsley to give her. He can lay on the floor and hold one end of the stalk very still and let her nibble the other end. If he is laying on his belly on the floor and not making any quick movements or noises, she may relax a little more with him (over time).
                        Good luck!!!! and btw, my bun was “the devil bunny” too and to some extent still is. She very rarely comes to me for cuddles and spends a lot of time nipping me.

                        Huckleberry~

                        Tillie is almost 6 months old. I have talked to my son about rabbit behavior and we have read a lot on the internet together. He gets is, he just has a hard time not “humaninzing” it. He understand about the predator thing and he knows that Tillie was not acting out to be mean. But, again, he did get his feelings hurt and he thinks she doesn’t like him. We are committed to give it time and I in turn it is teaching my young son patience, something very hard for a little kid (and some adults! ha!).

                         


                      • Stickerbunny
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                          Hope the clicker training helps. I am learning to respect my pairs boundaries now that they are bonding – if they are together they want me to leave them alone, Powder will still lay about the house solo and I can pet him then, but I got a nip today for invading their “couple space” cleaning up a mess in their now shared room, Powder has never been territorial but he is quite protective of his little girlfriend. Just think of it like when your kids grow up – you may not be able to hug and kiss them in front of the school anymore, but they still love you. Hopefully Tillie will come around to wanting you time as well as Toby time as she gets older.


                        • jerseygirl
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                            I won’t repeat the great advice already given. Just want to add some thoughts. I do agree a vet check is probably worth it. If no medical cause for her behaviour then at least you then know it’s purely behavioural.
                            I’d want to test her vision and see if that’s part of the problem. Maybe even trimming her mane around the eyes might help her vision if you think that could be part of the problem.

                            She does sound highly territorial combined with nervous (or fearful?) so hopefully she will become more docile with age.
                            It’s only been this past year I’ve seen real aggression from Jersey. One day she ran out of their hidey box and bit me on the leg even though I was standing several metres away from the box. It was unprovoked. It’s strange but I do sense it is a bit fear based with her. But without a doubt, most of the aggressive behaviour I’ve seen from her is from her picking up on the smell of the 2 rabbits she’s not bonded to. As you said Tillie was sniffing your sons arm, I wonder if she was picking up on smell of one of the other animals and was on high alert. Or it could have been an innocent arm movement that she perceived differently.

                            I’ve found lately that when I’m hanging out with the bunnies, I approach with my face. Lol ie. I’m reaching out with my hands less and just popping my head down near theirs more. I can get away with rubbing their heads with my own cheek and eventually bring my hand over and give more pets.
                            Rumball has always been skittish about hands but i have found he is more receptive to pets at certain times. So that might be another approach with Tillie and Toby. Offer the human interaction when their in a more chilled out state perhaps?

                            You can use Bach Rescue Remedy on rabbits. There’s one now that is not alcohol based and suitable for pets. Possibly that could help from time to time, especially when you are needing to do nail trims etc.

                            Sadly, Tillie might always be a “no touchy” bunny. Some are as much as we want to pet them. It’s hard. If that’s the case with Tillie, then clicker training would be a great way to interact and build confidence (for you both) and generally build a better relationship with her.

                            Of course, I can understand your fear of her being unpredictable – especially with the kids. You may have to lay down a new set of rules regarding her for now. Let the kids do the things that are positive, like giving the food, treats etc but generally keep their distance until you feel more confident about Tillie.


                          • Tate
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                              Posted By RabbitPam on 09/21/2011 11:43 AM
                              Oh, hard to believe but I forgot to mention one thing: bunnies communicate with their teeth, but they need to get the hang of it. So she may want to push you out of the way by using her mouth, but the need to learn to set their teeth without breaking skin – something they do very well as adults. 

                              My rabbit does this a lot. He’s at the point now where if I’m too close or irritating him in some way, he will bite my finger gently and actually physically move it somewhere (looks like a dog with a bone in his mouth ). It’s especially common in puppies… when you think about it, there’s tons of information to get from tasting something and even testing out strength. It sounds like Tillie was very rough with your son, so this might not be the whole picture, but don’t disregard just yet.

                              Tillie also sounds very protective of her time with Toby. Maybe they were having a “moment”.

                              It could be really good for Tillie to have some space for just a few days. Just give her some time to “reset”… it will also help you approach from a new angle. You can try to build a positive association between [yourself and her] and [your son and her]. It may be helpful to do them somewhat separately. When I was training dogs and there was a similar issue in the house, I made sure everyone in the house had TREATS. And even went so far as to make sure every person in the household had a different treat. So for example, Mom might have a piece of cheese and Dad had yogurt and the daughter had a hot dog and so on. Those treats were never used at any other time — only when that person was present, so they became extremely valuable and special. The dog would end up being more willing to work with that person because he knew that that was the only place he would get what he wanted. You can start off very slowly- a calm approach earns a reward. Once that’s managed you can move on- a calm approach + allowing to be pet earns another reward. This kind of thing works well for all animals… Small differences for rabbits, but the same kind of approach. It’s really the same as bonding two rabbits- they won’t bond if there isn’t some mutual appreciation or if the other rabbit illicits a negative “feeling”. 

                              The other thing I would say is talk to Tillie. I had to do this with Fievel. He hated pets and it seemed like he really could not stand me. I didn’t know how to interact with him because with Velvateen, I could go up to him and give kisses and recieve kisses and whatnot. Fievel is very no-touchy. I started talking to him and really trying to visualize the things I was saying- it sounds totally kooky but some believe that while animals can’t understand our language, they CAN pick up on our thoughts. Speaking things outloud and clearly naturally allows us to make up a picture in our minds. I started saying things like, “Fievel you are SO handsome and beautiful and perfect and mommy loves you” over and over again, Fievel slowly started to approach me. Then he wouldn’t run away as I walked past him. Then he chinned me. And now he licks me. It took about a month and I repeated certain phrases to him daily and spoke to him on his level. Each of my buns have “key phrases” that they pick up on… “Fievel my little buffalo” (haha, I know, I know- he just looks like a little buffalo to me) and “Velvateen my binky bun”. 

                              So maybe those are some things to try? I understand that its so overwhelming. Fievel, honestly, was NOT who I wanted. He wasn’t aggressive, but he just… took up space for a while, in all honesty. He didn’t get along with me, he didn’t get along with Velvateen. The boys still aren’t bonded, but Fievel and I are.


                            • luvmyhunybuny
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                                Posted By Tate on 09/21/2011 06:41 PM

                                So maybe those are some things to try? I understand that its so overwhelming. Fievel, honestly, was NOT who I wanted. He wasn’t aggressive, but he just… took up space for a while, in all honesty. He didn’t get along with me, he didn’t get along with Velvateen. The boys still aren’t bonded, but Fievel and I are.

                                 

                                Thanks Tate. And everyone else. I am going to take a little of what each of you suggested and try my hardest to work with Tillie. When I spoke to the rescue I got her from, they suggested I just bring her back. But I simply cannot. When the suggestion was made I cried buckets. My girl deserves my effort and love, even if she is a brat.

                                I had a long talk with my son and he understands bunnies are just ‘different’. He did tell me it is going to take him a while to “like” her again. I can’t blame him. His feelings were terribly hurt.

                                Thanks again to you all!


                              • Kokaneeandkahlua
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                                  I can only echo everyones great advice, and wish you luck


                                • Elrohwen
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                                    Great advice! I just wanted to let you know that I feel for you and your family – having a pet that bites is very frustrating. I hope she grows out of it a bit and that some of the suggestions here will help you. Otto is a no touchy bunny (though he doesn’t bite, he does use his teeth to push my hand away when he’s annoyed) and clicker training has been great for him – it allows us to interact in a way that is predictable for him and he feels like he’s more in control.


                                  • avarismom1
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                                      Posted By luvmyhunybuny on 09/21/2011 07:22 PM

                                      Posted By Tate on 09/21/2011 06:41 PM

                                      So maybe those are some things to try? I understand that its so overwhelming. Fievel, honestly, was NOT who I wanted. He wasn’t aggressive, but he just… took up space for a while, in all honesty. He didn’t get along with me, he didn’t get along with Velvateen. The boys still aren’t bonded, but Fievel and I are.

                                       

                                      Thanks Tate. And everyone else. I am going to take a little of what each of you suggested and try my hardest to work with Tillie. When I spoke to the rescue I got her from, they suggested I just bring her back. But I simply cannot. When the suggestion was made I cried buckets. My girl deserves my effort and love, even if she is a brat.

                                      I had a long talk with my son and he understands bunnies are just ‘different’. He did tell me it is going to take him a while to “like” her again. I can’t blame him. His feelings were terribly hurt.

                                      Thanks again to you all!

                                      this is the attitude you need to have.  With this attitude you are setting yourself and Tillie up for success.  Just give her time, give all of you time to adjust.  When I brought out 2 home I remember thinkg OMG what did I do.  Everyone got a long great and we had this great routine and now I have 2 rabbits that have never been handled, that scratch the ever living hell out of me when I try to get them in or out of their cages.  I thought maybe this was my worst idea yet!  But we kept at it, figuring out what worked with them, and their individual needs and personalities.  And now really I couldn’t imagine my life without 2 of them,


                                    • Zombie-Sue
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                                        You are way cooler than my mom my little dog bit my dad once and she got rid of her.

                                        Right now I am dealing with a rabbit who “hates” me (I know he can’t really hate me, but it sure feels like it) and so I sort of know how you feel. -hug-


                                      • luvmyhunybuny
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                                          Posted By Zombie-Sue on 09/23/2011 08:43 PM
                                          You are way cooler than my mom my little dog bit my dad once and she got rid of her.

                                          Right now I am dealing with a rabbit who “hates” me (I know he can’t really hate me, but it sure feels like it) and so I sort of know how you feel. -hug-

                                           

                                          Nah, not cooler. Maybe more of a sucker? Tillie is a mess. Tonight I got out the treats and she was lying down. Toby came running over to me (as he always does) and practically climbs all over me to get a treat. Tillie? She thumbs really loud and then charges me. The girl needs therapy.


                                        • RabbitPam
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                                            luvmyhunybuny,
                                            You have a wonderful attitude. It will take time, and she may need therapy but in a way, you’re the therapist. I understand your son not liking her now, and that’s perfectly OK too. He and she may both change over time, but as long as he doesn’t develop an issue with bunnies in general and stays tolerant, he is in good shape.
                                            The one report I hear time and again is how a bunny in a home grows to relax and feel secure, and ultimately love, the human family that keeps it. You will have years with her if she is in good health so you have the time this takes. Just lay back a bit, let her start coming to you more, and watch what happens. With your commitment, I guarantee half a year from now you will see marked improvement.


                                          • luvmyhunybuny
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                                              Posted By RabbitPam on 09/24/2011 08:06 AM
                                              luvmyhunybuny,
                                              You have a wonderful attitude. It will take time, and she may need therapy but in a way, you’re the therapist. I understand your son not liking her now, and that’s perfectly OK too. He and she may both change over time, but as long as he doesn’t develop an issue with bunnies in general and stays tolerant, he is in good shape.
                                              The one report I hear time and again is how a bunny in a home grows to relax and feel secure, and ultimately love, the human family that keeps it. You will have years with her if she is in good health so you have the time this takes. Just lay back a bit, let her start coming to you more, and watch what happens. With your commitment, I guarantee half a year from now you will see marked improvement.

                                               

                                              RB~

                                              You have been so very helpful, thank you! I have my clicker book ordered and my i-clicker on it’s way. I am so damn determined to get back my sweet, pet-me-mommy, girl back. This video was from before we got Toby and Tillie was spayed. I just about cry when I see this because I cannot do this to her now. But I know, soon, I will be able to.

                                               

                                              <embed width="600" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullscreen="true" allowNetworking="all" wmode="transparent" src="http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf” flashvars=”file=http%3A%2F%2Fvidmg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv14%2Fswtpeach%2FIMG_0396.mp4″>

                                               


                                            • RabbitPam
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                                                She’s beautiful there. And I’m sure she is now, too. Glad you are going to try the clicker.

                                                Please do take her to the vet, though, just in case. good time for a post-spay follow up.


                                              • luvmyhunybuny
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                                                  She has an appt tomorrow.


                                                • RabbitPam
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                                                    How’d it go?


                                                  • luvmyhunybuny
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                                                      Tillie is in great health! Seems we just have a bunny with a bad attitude. Sigh. I was talking to the rabbit rescue “guru” and she said that Lionheads don’t *usually* have the best temperaments. I have a in depth conversation with both she and vet and it may be something that will never get better.


                                                    • Sarita
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                                                        I’ve heard that about Lionheads. I think the same about Netherlands – they can be a bit grumpy but I imagine it’s due to being so small, they really have to be on guard at all times due to their small stature.


                                                      • Monkeybun
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                                                          Oh yeah. Monkey is the Queen of the grumps. lol!


                                                        • luvmyhunybuny
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                                                            Yep, definitely the Netherland Dwarf, which is what Lionheads are mixed with! Tillie’s sister was brought back to the rescue due to … biting. Sigh. She (Tillie) bit me a few days ago, while trying to groom her. I talked to the rescue chairman and I think we are going to try Bunny Bootcamp. I want her to access Miss and see if her aggression/territorial issues can be corrected. I have lost so much sleep over this and shed many, many tears. I DO NOT want to give up on her, but I also need to think about my kids (who she is always around, as she is in the game room where they hang out). This has been a very stressful time for us all.

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                                                        Forum BEHAVIOR Please, please help me!