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Forum HOUSE RABBIT Q & A Metacam intolerance? -UPDATE-

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    • MimzMum
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        A bit of background: Mimzy, after having a recent dental a little over a month ago, has been further diagnosed with beginning arthritis in his hips. His best vet has prescribed .2 ml metacam orally every 24 hrs, subsequently lowered to .1ml because I thought he was having breathing problems on it. He’s been using this pain medication regularly for two weeks.

        Sooo…after trying another 5 days in a row with .1 ml metacam to help Mimzy handle his arthritic hip joints, I’ve come to the conclusion he can’t tolerate it on a daily basis. The first week he was at .2ml for every other day and that was too much too, so we dropped him down to the current dose. His symptoms are:

        Inappetance: I’ve watched him eat barely enough to stay alive for the last few days. Although I give him his dose on his first food of the day, it apparently isn’t enough to protect his stomach and something doesn’t feel right inside him. I gave him lots of greens today, which he took his time eating. I give him simethicone for gas, but I am not sure that’s why he doesn’t enjoy his greens like he used to. He still poops okay, albeit smaller and drier, but …

        Reduced urination: A month ago before his dental he was peeing all over the place, and if his hips hurt too much he won’t get in the litterbox and he still leaves a puddle or two from day to day…but for the most part it’s really a lot less and he’s only drinking little bits here and there instead of emptying a whole bottle in one day. I notice when he comes out of the litter box onto a puppy pad he does leave a spot of urine. I’ve even resorted to adding a water crock, but he won’t always drink from it.

        Rear leg weakness: He carries his back feet around in a big ‘clump’ when he hops. Pivots on them instead of using them separately. He occasionally periscopes or stretches up to see something above him, but not nearly as much as he used to. He nips at himself constantly, especially the rear feet and legs. I think he’s begun barbering more of his hocks. He mostly wants to be snuggled and given a massage when he’s out with me. I wish i coudl give him some other form of physical therapy. I can’t say the last time I really saw him binky. (ETA: No wait…a few mornings ago I happened to be up early enough I heard him tearing around in his habitat, but I don’t recall if that was before or after his metacam dose.)

        Depression: This is the most alarming. If I take him out of his pen and cuddle him and urge him to move around, he seems to perk up, but once he’s in for the night or if I can’t exercise him at the moment, he is gloomy and seems miserable. (Remember the three aren’t bonded so I have to exercise one at a time.) He sits in one corner of his pen when he’s in it, doesn’t even seem to enjoy a long flop like he used to. Now he’s had to have his night shelf and ramp removed for fear he’ll injure himself trying to get up and down from it, but this means he has no cover to retreat to and even a blanket hung onto the side of the pen doesn’t seem to appease him.

        I’m getting really worried. I will hate to have to haul him back off to the vet, especially since they don’t seem to be able to do anything for him. Could it be the metacam that’s caused this in him or the pain? He wasn’t like this at all before the dental. It seems like every time one of my animals has one of those now I have trouble for weeks afterwards.

        I’ve also thought it might be a cracked tooth from the dental, but he eats his timothy treats for me, so I can’t imagine his molars are bothering him. I’m just lost, really. He seems to be cheered by lying near Fiver’s habitat, but I am afraid to put them together if he is ill and could communicate something to Fiver.

        Sometimes I feel like he’s slipping away from me even though he is lively enough when he’s out of his night hab…maybe there’s something in there that’s making him sick? It IS 4 years old…it’s a Superpet pen, the largest one. And the center of the plastic bottom is warped up in the middle, so the corners slope down away from it. Maybe it’s just not flat enough for him to lie on comfortably anymore?

        I really need to get him and Fiver and Pip bonded, but like I said, I worry due to that nasal congestion Mimzy still has that he’s carrying something contagious. He’s been tested with nothing definitive, they diagnosed him with branhamella years ago and the vet just thinks he’s a ‘boogery bunny.’ But I’m thinking of at least having my vet do an extra EC titer on him, she also isn’t convinced that the titer is conclusive and I don’t know that she would prescribe anything.

        I don’t want to have to give up on the bonding. If they could all live together, I could get a new, larger xpen for all three to live in for the remainder of their lives. Would be a lot less stress on all of us and maybe Mimzy would be happier. Or could it mean that they’d all be sick together?

        Opinions? Advice? I’m at a loss here.

         


      • MimzMum
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          Whoops…I just reread my post and see some unclear points:
          I can’t FEEL anything wrong with his stomach, I was saying he was acting like his stomach hurt him. I can never tell if he actually has gas, so I usually give him a little liquid simethicone just to be safe. Sometimes it helps, other times not so much.

          Also, he was peeing his habitat before his dental because my vet reasoned he wasn’t able to eat enough to fill his tummy, so he was overdrinking water. But now he’s just licking at the bottle or dish once in awhile. We’ve gone from emptying a 16 oz bottle every day and a half when he first came to live with me, to an 8 oz bottle every two days until a few months ago…now he won’t touch anything but a hamster bottle.
          Okay…if I wasn’t clear anywhere else, please ask me. Thanks!


        • Monkeybun
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            Poor little man.

            I expect buns can build up a resistance to drugs just like humans and other animals can. Maybe it’s just not working right for him, so he is uncomfortable, thus not eating as much, etc.

            I also think if it was contagious, the others likely would have gotten it by now anyway, with them exercising in the same space and breathing the same air in your bedroom.

            I’m sorry he isn’t doing any better


          • MimzMum
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              Me too, MB. He’s my best bun…really a true friend when I needed him the most, two years from diagnosis. I love Pip & Fiver dearly also, but he is just so special… ;_;
              I have to do everything I can for him. I don’t want him to be in pain. I don’t want to be doing anything to cause him pain. I wish there was an answer.

              Does anyone think it would be too much for him to try to bond maybe him and Fiver now? They seem to be real chummy while I’m sitting there with them, and Fiver is still in his habitat, but I wouldn’t want to take the chance of them hurting one another. I’d also love to restrengthen the bond between Pip and Mimzy, but not sure Fiver wouldn’t get left out of that one.

              Meh…bunnies can be such hard work. I just want them all to love one another. >.< I think it would really cheer Mimz to at least have a snuggle buddy that is always there.


            • Monkeybun
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                I think its worth a shot. And if it doesn’t, at least you tried and wouldn’t be stuck wondering


              • Sarita
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                  Have you tried taking him totally off to see if this makes a difference?

                  Could it be that the reason you feel he’s depressed is because he’s in pain or discomfort? That sounds like a very likely possibility to me.

                  You have to remember as well, that he’s not young and spry any longer and he’s in his middle age years.

                  I doubt that they will get sick together but I honestly don’t see you bonding I think that will stress you out more :~)


                • KatnipCrzy
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                    Any meds- especially an NSAID like Metacam can have side effects. And most NSAIDs are known for possibly causing tummy upset- and that could cause most (if not all) of the other symptoms you are seeing. I would call the vet about it- Metacam may not be agreeing with him.


                  • jerseygirl
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                      Ditto about  ringing the vet and seeing if you can try an alternate medication. Tramadol can be used for arthritis and dental pain. Can also be used in conjunction with metacam.

                      I’m with MB on regarding the bonding. It’s worth a shot. Some “playdates” and see how things go. I do see your concern about anything contagious. I was talking with someone about this just a few days ago. We both felt the rabbit having the companion was better for it’s health overall then worrying about any chance of each contracting something from the other.


                    • MimzMum
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                        Sarita- he’s been off the metacam for almost two days as of today and I definitely see a difference. No binkies, but brighter eyes, less hooded and depressed looks/attitude, perks up when he sees me instead of staring through me like he’s got a migraine.
                        I had to give him a little more simethicone last night after greens since his tum felt a bit tight, he’s been laying down with his rear heels up and I can’t tell if he’s trying to pass gas or his back legs hurt, but today he is as on the go as he can be in his condition. Much more like the bun I know. Funny, he is up somewhere from 4 AM to 8 AM eating and drinking, then by the time I am finally somewhat cognizant, he is ready for a snooze. I usually clean him up and check his overall condition, making sure he’s not looking off or hasn’t eaten/peed/pooped. He appears almost brilliant today. Quite the turnaround.
                        One other thing, I DID finally locate my missing windscreen for the bunny room yesterday (been looking for it since the temps rose above 20 F) and had the window open wide for a change most of the day. Once the breeze starts coming in from outside he tips his nose towards it and brightens, so the fresh air is doing him good. Maybe he just needed that too. If there was any green in my yard at all right now, I’d take him out for a few hours supervised romp. We’ve had next to no rain since the snow melted and the temps will be blistering (for us, about 70 F) for the next week. No rain means no green grass. It’s all dead wood and nasty rotted old hayseed and weeds out there right now.

                        I’m pretty sure we’ll be changing his meds. I’ve heard the tramadol has an easier effect on all internals save the liver, I think, so he’ll have to have screenings done periodically. His doc doesn’t come in till the weekends, but I’ll ring them anyway and leave her a note. Plus I have yet to get a few weeks of cosequin into him. I just want to be sure that tum is feeling better before I assault it with something else.

                        Thanks everyone. I feel a bit better about him today. And Fiver’s doing a little better too, possibly due to fresh dandelion I’ve fed him of late, so we’ll just keep letting them ‘hang together’ a bit more since it seems to perk them both up. I won’t do anything that will stress us all out more, I think there’s been enough of that.


                      • KatnipCrzy
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                          tramadol is often used for pain and can be used with NSAIDs as they work differently. Tramadol will treat pain- but not inflammation. Where NSAID’s treat inflammation which also helps decrease pain. But Tramadol does not require the extensive liver and other organ function that NSAIDs often do if used long term (more than just post-op or a sprain/strain).

                          Tramadol comes in pill form (brand name is Ultram- and many people are familiar with it as that name)- and my vet had it compounded into liquid form for cats- but I guess it was still not very palatable for cats and it is a toss up of giving them the icky liquid or popping part of a tablet (1/8-1/4) down their throat. But when I give partial pills to a cat- I try to put a little butter on the broken edge to help prevent them from tasting it and help it to do down. Now I would not recommend butter for a bunny- but there must be something that would work that is thick and will coat the edge of the broken pill- apple butter? (has not butter in it).


                        • MimzMum
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                            My stepmom used Ultram for years for back pain. Worked pretty well for her I think. I’ve actually thought of asking my oncologist for tramadol because I always have such bad back pain since beginning adjuvant therapy for my cancer. I can no longer take things like vicodin.

                            I hope we can use it, or something like it for Mimzy if he becomes uncomfortable again. It’s good to see him moving around a bit more today and acting more like his old self, but I know the older he gets, the more he will hurt.

                            Aging….it ain’t fer sissies….lolz


                          • RabbitPam
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                              I’m glad to hear he’s doing better today. It does sound like you’re on the right track.
                              While Sarita makes a good point about your own stress, I am inclined to agree with the attempt to bond them. My thinking is that he is unlikely to be uncooperative with one of the others establishing dominance, so there’s not much potential friction there. He’s unlikely to fight. Therefore, the others will probably not fight him either. Just be ready to protect him first and foremost. He doesn’t need another thing going wrong.
                              I also think he might respond positively with bonding since he perks up with you, and it may be company in general and bunny snuggling in particular will go a long way to make him feel better. I think it’s worth a try. And I agree that if he were contagious they would have gotten it – just too many ways they could have. So I doubt he is. Why spend more $ on unnecessary tests – save it for the meds.


                            • MimzMum
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                                I guess what also concerned me was not only the possibility of injury, but that the stress of bonding might make him more ill. But somehow I’m going to attempt it and hope for the best. I would be so happy to see eventually all three of them sharing one big condo and no longer feeling alone or certain that there is a friend nearby that they cannot cuddle with, but long to.
                                He is back to snubbing food somewhat today. I can’t tell if he is in pain or has gas. He seemed comfortable last night, but then I kept hearing sounds like gurgling or I thought he might be grinding his toenails in to the floor of his pen. But every time I got up to check on him, he was completely silent and just watching me out of one eye like, “Do you mind? I’m trying to relax!”
                                ETA: Just had to clean his floor, he’d peed on his hay again. >.< So I chopped up some veggies afterwards to tempt him to eat. I feel like I should give him something for the pain, but all I have is the metacam.

                                His vet won’t be in till Friday. I don’t trust anyone else with his case. At least he showed interest in the veggies.


                              • MimzMum
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                                  Well I got my call this morning.
                                  Vet recommends using either rimadyl (tablets that have to be compounded) or buprenorphine (injections, risky to impossible if hubby can’t help with them) but will not/cannot script tramadol. She says it’s expensive and would have to be given by a human pharmacy, if we could find it at all in the right form. Apparently she either doesn’t know how to do that for a bunny or may be unwilling to give it to him. She also notes that these meds only control pain, not inflammation.

                                  Soooo…I’m back to square one. Mimz was uncomfortable (we both are today-rained finally after days of threatening) and peeing his habitat the last few days, chewing at his hocks, so I went ahead and filled him up on veggies this morning and gave him .1 ml metacam, since we have it. I just won’t dose him every day for now until I find something else…I’ll wait to see what his body language is telling me and save it for when he’s hurting visibly instead of trying to build it up in his system. Last few days he’s been getting on reasonably well, but he’s still making the occasional smaller poos and getting in that morose mood whether he has the meds or not. He will eat more if I just put small amounts of hay in and refresh throughout the day rather than dumping a huge load in for the whole day that he usually pees over by evening.

                                  Anyway, I told the vet I’d have to think about it, (she honestly woke me with the call and I was too foggy to think clearly, she was obviously rushed by her tone), she’s on call all weekend, so I can ring her and she can make the prescription out if I change my mind. But I probably won’t. Despite what she says about how well bunnies take things like metacam (I have evidence that one does not) rimadyl or buprenorphine as opposed to dogs or cats, I’m just not convinced. I have to go by what I see every day, not by what she sees maybe twice a year for 15 minutes.
                                  Starting to think a change of venue may be necessary. Perhaps even a more holistic approach might garner more results. We have a holistic vet in North Pole, but she’s usually packed client wise.

                                  So that’s where we are now.


                                • KatnipCrzy
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                                    Buprenorphine (injectable) can be given to cats sub-lingual (under the tongue) to absorb thru the mucus membranes. My vet clinic gave in to declaw cats while they were there for their 2 day post-op spay. We used regular injectable- and I don’t think it tastes good at all- but it was not a lot. My clinic then got it compounded in a flavored version- and I used that for Moonshine, my cancer cat, towards the end of his life for QOL- and I don’t think the flavoring helped at all- just added to the volume to give. Buprenorphine/Buprinex is a narcotic/controlled substance so will work differently than and NSAID (but that could be good in Mimzy’s situation).

                                    Rimadyl (another NSAID) is not controlled but it does come in injectable- many vets may not carry it- and I am not sure if it could be given orally- though most likely it could- it would just not taste good. Fortunately Rimadyl is generic now- so that may help you cost wise- but compounding adds cost wise though.


                                  • LittlePuffyTail
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                                      Sorry to hear you are still having problems with Mimzy. Your story reminded me very much of my horse who also has a low tolerance to NSAIDs. It’s very frustrating when the meds they are taking for one problem causes another problem (and when that intolerance costs you $300)

                                      With regards to the bonding and Mimzy getting stressed I would just start it slow and play it by ear. It may not stress him out at all. I was very concerned about Stormy getting stressed as he’s a senior bun. Just keep an eye on how Mimzy is reacting and if he seems stressed just take a small break or slow things down a bit.

                                      ((((((Continued Vibes for Mimzy)))))))


                                    • Sarita
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                                        I’ve used the buprenex as well orally for Pepe when he had his dental and he seemed fine with it. And I used it for Maxine orally when she was very very crippled from arthritis.

                                        It’s been a long time since I used Rimadyl, that is what my vet’s used before metacam and some other pain meds and I thought it was a pill that I crushed up because that vet did not compound. But I could be wrong.


                                      • KatnipCrzy
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                                          Sarita- Rimadyl probably was a pill that you crushed. The injectable was “newer” than pill form and not every vet carries it because there are/were other NSAID injectables that were not as pricey. And getting from your vet and fiddling with crushing pills, mixing with something or adding water to syringe into mouth is almost 100% always going to be cheaper than having compounded at a vet compounding pharmacy (the prescription is ordered and shipped).

                                          IMO- sometimes compounding does not help much- because it still does not taste good and adding these flavors increases the volume of meds you have to give. It is nice though because bunnies have a sweet tooth- and it seems as though sweet can mask bitterness well. And once nice thing about compounding is being able to dose easily. One of my kittens just had to go to the vet for limping and he was put on an AB and Tramadol. I have Tramadol from my 18 lb cat in pill form- and he needed 1/4 tablet. Not even wanting to imagine how to try to dose a 2 lb kitten from a tablet- I opted for the oral compounded Tramadol for him.


                                        • Sarita
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                                            I definitely am happy my current vet compounds! I know they seem to have 2 different formulations from what I’m understanding as well for cats and dogs – seems like the cat one is thinner. I don’t totally understand why but it is the one I prefer they use but I have to give a higher “dose” with the thinner formula when they compound the baytril.

                                            That makes sense about the rimadyl too – I think it was about 10 years ago when I used the rimadyl.


                                          • osprey
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                                              {{{ Mimzy }}}

                                              I don’t have experience with any of these drugs, so all I can do is hope for the best for him and send him healing vibes x 4 from our house.


                                            • RabbitPam
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                                                Just want to send a few extra {{{{{{{{{{{{{Healing vibes}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

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                                            Forum HOUSE RABBIT Q & A Metacam intolerance? -UPDATE-