Pinnapple Juice

[BunnyBuns7]

Hello,

I work at a veterinary clinic, and today we have a rabbit in that hadn’t eaten for 24 hours. The vet instructed the person to give the rabbit pinnapple juice and water. Then if the rabbit still wouldn’t eat to mix some of the fecals with it and sent home baytril. I found the pinnapple thing questionable. I was wondering if this was correct or not. I would think the rabbit would just get diarrhea from all the sugar. Thoughts?

[Sarita]

Pineapple juice is very old school. It doesn’t sound like the vet see’s alot of rabbits in my opinion. Rabbits rarely get diarrhea either and if they did that would be very extreme…the sugar may cause runny cecals which is different from diarrhea but still not good.

Fecals with baytril….that is extremely odd, why would you do that and why the baytril for stasis? Did they think the rabbit had an infection and that’s why it was not eating.

[tobyluv]

The old thinking was to give pineapple juice and/or Laxaire, Petromalt or other animal laxatives. Now if a rabbit has stopped eating, and can’t be tempted by various new varieties of hay or veggies, a motility drug such as Reglan (which stimulates the upper intestinal tract) or Propulsid (which works on the lower intestinal tract) will likely be prescribed. It’s important to know just where the problem is, so that the proper drug can be administered. Sometimes the reason a rabbit is not eating is due to excess gas, and baby simethicone can be bought at the drug store to help with that. Critical Care may be needed in conjunction with the motility drugs.

[BunnyBuns7]

Unfortunately the rabbit was euthanized today. It apparently had a mild respiratory infection. I’m wondering if the owners didn’t catch it in time. Still find it strange, though because when the owners showed him to me yesterday he was bright and alert. Frustrating.

[Sarita]

Did he take a turn for the worse last night? I would think if it was mild and he was taking medication, that should have helped.

Perhaps there was more that was going on and only a necropsy might be able to see more.

[BunnyBuns7]

I would have thought so too. Poor bun. Maybe there was more going on. Just seems like every time we have a rabbit come it that’s sick, it never makes it and it irritates me to no end. I don’t know if owners aren’t paying enough attention or if we’re just cursed.

[jerseygirl]

That’s sad it was put to sleep. I don’t really understand why but I guess we don’t have all the details. Rabbits do hide illness well as you may know, so it can be hard for owners to be aware early on. Lack of eating and pooping is pretty obvious though. Stasis is often secondary to some other ailment (maybe the URI in this case?) but stasis is the thing that can become the main concern.

Mixing fecals with the juice? Was the vet meaning cecals, the “night droppings”? Either way, i’m 100% sure that would not make mine take the juice more readily!

Would you like some more current publications on treating GI stasis? I don’t know what your relationship is with the vets at the clinic is like, but perhaps you could share it with them? Just as someone with a interest in rabbit health? I noticed your signature quote…very wise.

[BunnyBuns7]

When they brought the rabbit in in the morning the heart rate was very very low. Very sad.

As far as fecals versus cecals. The vet said fecals. I have asked before and if a rabbit isn’t eating they will have the employees bring in fecals from our rabbits. I clarified with them before because cecals would make sense, but my bun happily eats all of hers. They said they can get the probiotics from the fecals. So, I don’t think it’s a matter of encouraging the juice intake. It’s a way for them to get some probiotics from healthy buns. At least, that was my understanding.

I would love some more current publications on treating GI stasis. I did watch the video that was posted on it a while back. That was very interesting! Glad you like my quote. Gotta love Dr. Seuss. I feel like a vacuum with rabbit info. 😀 Give me more! Haha.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

I’m sorry to hear that. I wonder if the buns aren’t making it because a) some of the medical advice is old, and an appropriate rabbit vet should be seeing them and b) the owners wait to long or a combination of course. My vet has some sad stories of ‘my rabbit hasn’t eating in a week, is that bad?’ cases where she’s just like omg what are you doing? People seem to like the wait and see and with rabbits you just can’t. And then if the vet is handing advise like antibiotics for stasis, and pineapple juice…well maybe they should be seeing rabbits?
Vets who see rabbits need extra courses (not to treat a rabbit…to treat a rabbit effectively and know what they are doing) as it’s not a focus for mainstream small animal practice, and the field has changed dramatically in recent years. My vet takes exotic courses every year and stays in touch with a specialist whenever anything is up-and she really focuses on rabbits in vet school and is a recent grad. It takes a lot of effort for vets to treat exotics like rabbits.

[Malp_15]

I also work in a veterinary clinic and we have a couple of exotic savvy vets. We take a syringe with a feeding tip and mix up some “critical care” and force feed the bun it every few hours and the bunny usually starts eating within 12 hours. Maybe bring that up to the vet next time there is a situation like that.

[jerseygirl]

Critical care is a great thing to have on hand and it’s not just for rabbits.

I’m aware of “donor” cecal to aid good gut bacteria. The risk with donor cecals is if the donor rabbit is harbouring any intestinal parasites. I’ve not heard about feeding fecals before… I just noticed in the last 2 days the little rabbit I have here (10wk old) is eating the odd fecal. I wondered why he chose some over others. Maybe sometimes the fecal and cecal are mixed. Or rabbit self innoculates with fecals every now and then? Cecals, fecals, smecals…it’s all a bit Dr Suess really isn’t it!

[peppypoo]

Regarding the pineapple juice – I’ve heard people recommend it, I’ve heard other people say that it’s an outdated method, and I’ve also heard other people say that it’s still relevant to current research. It’s pretty clear that pineapple/papaya enzymes aren’t going to dissolve hair – stick some hair in pineapple juice and it’ll stay there all day. However, I’ve heard it suggested that the enzymes break down mucus that could be otherwise slowing down the GI tract, an idea that might have some validity. In any case, at most I figure it can’t hurt as a supplementary treatment, but probably won’t solve any problems on it’s own.

[Sarita]

Stasis is just a condition when the gut slow down and that can be for a number of reasons.

I’m a little confused as to what was wrong with this rabbit other than an URI. Old school use of pineapple juice is for a blockage so why treat with pineapple juice for a URI…

I would ask the vet directly about this rabbit’s situation because you get alot of second hand info from the owners and the vet techs which may or may not be totally correct.

[Sarita]

I recommend readiing this article on stasis:

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/ileus.html

Obviously you have to treat any underlying illness as well as the stasis.  Stasis is not an illnesses in it’s self, it’s a conditioin where the gut slows down or stops but there’s always an underlying reason.

[BunnyBuns7]

What is critical care and where could I find some to keep on hand? Does it have a good shelf life. I’m assuming it’s a power mix. What other animals can eat it?

I don’t feel like the vet gave the owners a way to feel the animal. He didn’t tell them anything to feed it other than pineapple juice and water. And this particular vet is new to rabbits. Our exotics vet is going to a new practice and so this vet is trying to take on some of her exotics. His comment to me was that rabbits are just like mini horses. The comment kind of disturbed me because I would disagree.

Jerseygirl, do you know how they would go about collecting cecals? Seems like it would take a lot of patience. Haha.

Sarita, thanks for the article. I will check it out!

[LoveChaCha]

Hi This is what Critical Care is. I believe herbivores can have it:
http://www.oxbowanimalhealth.com/vets/products/critical_care
It should be syringe fed to the animals. It is for animals that have stopped eating, after surgery, etc. I just bought a bag from my vet and I am going to make a bunny emergency kit.

I know there are some vets that attend seminars to receive new information. My vet has seen rabbits for 14 years and sometimes she leaves for a week at a time to attend seminars.

Ouch I hope that the new vet does some research and education.. rabbits and horses are not alike at all! They may eat hay, but are totally different.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

I don’t know…I would agree a lot about the mini horses thing…those darned cecums!! Stasis is a lot like colic in horses…basically the gut stops moving or slows down, gas can cause strange behavior and pain, the whole thing can cause death, and there are many causes and treatments, surgery is last resort and hardly successful…so I would agree on that Oh yeah…and HAY HAY HAY for health!

But yeah sounds like new inexperienced vet…maybe a push in the right direction?

I ditto Jers-I’ve heard of the cecal thing…I’ve heard it’s the ‘can’t hurt might help’ thing though…no proof. And I’ve never heard of it as a medication delivery method…

Critical care is made by oxbow, they make a carnivore and herbivore type. It’s only given by vet to patient, can’t buy it openly. It’s AWESOME and so many vets would have much lower success rates without it. Complete meal, add water, syringe feed.

[jerseygirl]

Criti care can be given in a dish too. Some rabbit will eat it like that. There’s and apple/banana flavour now! I think once opened, you can reseal and freeze the powder. Not sure…
There are some other thing like this product – small animal support feeds etc.

The cecal thing; I’d read about wildlife rehabbers (cottontails) doing this but I don’t think it’s really recommended now. Cecals are produced a certain amount of time after eating (4 or 5 hrs?) so I guess they try collect around then? Who knows. They’d be lucky to find excess cecals and keep them viable anyway. My rabbits produce cecals randomly probably because they eat throughout the day.

I ditto K&K on the horse thing. It’s not the 1st time I’ve heard rabbits being compared to horses. It usually in regards to digestion. Similar, not the same. But care does need to be taken to give quality feed to horses and colic is bad news and needs attention pronto just like stasis. Horses can handle sugars and grains a lot better then rabbit though. And they don’t eat cecals.  So the comparison is limited.

Ideally, this rabbit needed to be assessed as to why he hadn’t been eating and determine if he’d been pooping. (This may have been done, i wouldn’t know) Checked for dehydration, blockages, temperature, given motility drugs if required, given fluids and pain meds.  I’m hoping the vet checked him over for possible sources of pain. Just his teeth or even a hidden injury on the limbs might have given enough pain for it to be off it’s food. I’m not certain of your role in the clinic but if you do interact with the owners prior to the appt, perhaps you can get some details of what;s going on and encourage them to share those details with the vet.  Do you think that might help?  There may be things you know are important info for the vet to be made aware of that the owners hadn’t realised was relevant.  

Binky free little bun!

[KatnipCrzy]

In the state on Michigan- continuing education is not required for veterinarians.  Yep- they could have graduated 30 years ago and never spent another hour learning newer more up to date info.  And even if they do continuing education- it does not mean that they have done any exotics seminars.

The vet clinic I used to work for was very progressive in dog and cat medicine- but lacking in rabbit medicine- and I would find them occasionally recommending pineapple juice and one doctor even recommended yogurt (eek!!) and for bladder sludge one dr was going to recommend eliminating all greens and do pellets only.  Did they listen to me?  probably not.  The internet can be as harmful as it is helpful- and while Binky Bunny is very unique in its excellent rabbit health and house rabbit advice- most of the other crap on the internet is just that- crap.  (Sorry- but I hate some of the info out there on how to treat your sick rabbit with livestock drugs, etc).

[BunnyBuns7]

Very interesting about the critical care. Probably a good thing to have on hand. Strange that it’s not over the counter. I’m sure I could order it for our vet, but we don’t have it on hand.

I’ll keep thinking of ways to subtly encourage this new vet to learn more about rabbits and other small animals for that matter. It’s hard to find the line because I don’t want to offend the vet and his intelligence when he went to school and I did not.

that’s interesting that there isn’t really proof of whether the cecals help or not. My bun, like yours, produces cecals randomly and I never see them. She’s quick on the draw. haha.

As for the horse comparison, I can see how the vet can draw some similarities. Yes they both eat hay and are a prey animal, but that doesn’t make them the same. That’s like treating a wolf and puma the same because they’re carnivorous.

I dont’ know what the laws are here, as far as continuing education. I don’t think it’s right, though for a vet to be able to treat an exotic and not have a degree in exotics.

[KatnipCrzy]

I know what you mean about talking to the vet about better recommendations!!!  They have the degree- but you have the personal experience and they are so used to “internet advice” as being uninformed or a way for owners to save money as opposed to proper medical treatment.

I think that Oxbow does not sell Critical Care thru other avenues other than vet is that they are probably trying to keep it out of the hands of those that are self diagnosing and treating.  If a bunny stops eating- it is likely to need a medication for WHY it stopped eating- whether it is tummy pain or dental pain, etc.    I have never asked the company- but I think they are trying to be ethically responsible and ensure that rabbits that need to be force fed are getting vet care.

There are quite a few vet supply vendors that carry Critical Care- I can’t remember which one I ordered thru at work.  And I actually have seen it in a petstore once and it might be possible to find it online if you really search.

 

[Beka27]

Some vets may also be open to consulting with other exotic specialists, but usually this wouldn’t occur until something was wrong.

[BunnyBuns7]

That makes sense. There are many people out there who try to cut corners to save money. Maybe it’s a liability thing on their part.

Our vets will consult or refer if need be, but not often.

[RabbitPam]

I’m reading through your post all at once, and it was clear that you were dealing with an inexperienced vet. When I got to the explanation that your practice’s exotic expert was leaving and this vet was picking up the business, it made more sense. What would be ideal is if the newer vet referred rabbit owners to the exotics expert. How far away is that vet going? Is the vet leaving on good terms?

I have seen many vets over the years who were the first to admit they were not exotics specialists, and were only willing to take a stab at an emergency, but when that wasn’t the case, were more than happy to recommend a colleague or even suggest I go online or in the phone book to find a vet that listed for exotics. There is more harm in being in over your head than in losing a patient to a competitor. I would see if there was a subtle but noble way to have a good referral to suggest to a patient if it is for more than routine maintenance. Who knows? A good local exotic might be able to return the favor with bunny owners who need a cat vet. My own vet only sees exotics (including birds, lizards, snakes, etc.) but never handles any dogs or cats.

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