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Forum DIET & CARE No greens in rabbits’ diets!?!?!?

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    • blackfang
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        I was researching on chinchilla’s diet then i found this information.

        “To me, greens are appropriate for rabbits and necessary for guinea pigs.

        Rabbits can live without greens, but I always recommend 1 cup of dark greens twice a day. There are some rabbits that don’t do well with greens in their diets (usually the geriatric ones), but most do very well as long as they are being given the right type (celery and iceburg lettuce are not considered “greens” in my book). If you look at the diet pyramid for rabbits it is 90% hay, 5% greens, 5% pellets.

        Guniea pigs need dark leafy greens (not spinich) due to their inability to make their own vitamin C. Yes, they say certain pellets and liquid supplements have vitamin C in them, but it is a light sensitive vitamin. If that bag of feed or bottle of supplement sits on the pet store shelf for 6 months, all of the vitamin C will be gone. The only supplement I trust is the Oxbow GTN-C tablets. Once again, vegetables like broccoli are not considered greens.

        As far as the chins go, yes, I think you could add greens to their diets slowly, but I myself just don’t see them being a huge benefit to their long term health. Everyone has their own opinion and knows what works best for their pets.

        Angie Keffer, VMD”

        http://www.chins-n-hedgies.com/foru…php?t=1648

        Angie Keffer is one of the vet that I go for check-up..

        Soooo… I wonder what would happen if I don’t feed vegetables to my rabbits. I mean what’s the health benefit from eating greens? We can get calcium, low protein, and fiber from hays..

        If it is possible that rabbits don’t need vegetables, I could adopt more bunnies because I’ll only have to pay like 300 dollars for hay and wood stove pellets yearly (for two bunnies)

        OR.. feed veggies every other day?

        *sighs* too much “what if” questions.. I want to make sure my rabbits live long -_-


      • Sarita
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          Well, first, I think she does recommend greens. Just because she is stating they can live without them, doesn’t mean that she recommends that.

          Secondly, I don’t think that you should consider not giving greens a recommendation to get more rabbits.

          I recommend that if Dr. Keffer is one of your vets that you ask her the question since she made this statement – ask for clarification.

          My rabbits enjoy their greens and I find it to be a very healthy diet – plant based diets are healthy for humans and rabbits and I my own personal choice is to continue feeding them the greens they enjoy and are healthy. For the most part, my rabbits do not get pellets.


        • blackfang
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            I’ll ask her through email.

            Just curious, what vitamins rabbit needs from vegetables?


          • Heather&BabsyBooboo
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              As a matter of interest when should I start Babsy on greens? Shes 12 weeks old now and she gets unlimited hay and a handful of pellets once a day of which she finishes every last bit.Should I have started her already? She’s growing really well and is thriving. She loves her pellets but I heard it was the equivalent of junk food so I don’t really want to give her any more than she already gets.


            • Sarita
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                Well rabbits like any animal need all vitamins and they can get those with their vegetables.


              • Beka27
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                  Heather… rabbits can begin eating greens when they start solid foods. In the ideal world, the mother rabbit receives greens along with her pellets and hay, so the babies start nibbling on mama’s veggies as young as 3-4 weeks. If your bun has not had greens yet, now would be a good time to start slowly introducing them, a limited amount, adding one new type of green each week.

                  Taurus: The cost of buying greens is minimal compared to vet costs and anecdotal experiences prove that rabbits with poor, “breeder-type” diets (crappy pellets, too many pellets, insufficient hay) can be very sickly their entire lives.

                  It would be better for you to have ONE rabbit with the best possible care, habitat, diet, etc… than several rabbits with inferior care. And then this way… if that ONE rabbit does get sick, vet costs won’t be as high as if you had several rabbits and they all needed treatment at the same time.


                • AbbyGirl
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                    I agree. Your rabbits will be healthier with veggies in their diet. Hugo didn’t have fresh food because of his tummy issues and then the long treatment with Baytril made his tummy act up a little more. So his vet said not to give them to him. I was going to re-introduce them when he was off the meds and his tummy was better.
                    Since Rhine (our first foster bun) has been here I’ve been giving him romaine. He’s been doing good so I’m going to start to give him new veggies and less pellets to get him on a proper diet for his weight.
                    I am getting another foster bun and was informed that he gets sick every time he tries veggies. They think it may be due to the stress he is under by being caged so much. So, for now he will be on a pellet and hay diet only. I’m hopeful he will do better here being in a pen instead of a cage and with lots of playtime. Maybe after that he can start on veggies slowly.
                    Every bunny is different but I wouldn’t do a no veggie diet unless it was medically necessary.


                  • bunnnnnnie!
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                      I actually made a thread about this awhile ago, and never really got a concrete answer.  Nutritionally, I do believe a rabbit’s diet requirements can be met without greens, but they do have an important role in hydration and keeping the gut moving, especially if the bun is not a big hay eater.


                    • blackfang
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                        Posted By Sarita on 11/09/2010 08:43 AM
                        Well rabbits like any animal need all vitamins and they can get those with their vegetables.

                        Rabbits don’t need vitamin C because they have ablitiy to produce their OWN vitamin C in their bodies. That’s why I asked to see if rabbits have abilities to produce vitaimn A or etc.


                      • Sarita
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                          I think the thing to remember about pellets is that it was initially invented as a food for breeders as an inexpensive way to fatten up their rabbits.

                          Luckily pellets have come a long way since then and we have learned that they should be fed in limited quantities and there are companies out there that are making a more quality product for house rabbits.

                          It certainly is not a natural food for our rabbits like hay and like fresh greens and vegetables. It’s manufactured with convenience in mind really, not necessarily what is the best for a house rabbit and it’s cheaper than fresh vegetables but let’s face it, pellets really aren’t necessarily that cheap.


                        • Sarita
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                            Taurus, perhaps while you are emailing the vet you should ask her about this and let us know what she says.


                          • Kokaneeandkahlua
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                              Well, first, I think she does recommend greens. Just because she is stating they can live without them, doesn’t mean that she recommends that.

                              Secondly, I don’t think that you should consider not giving greens a recommendation to get more rabbits.

                              Ditto!!! Well said for sure.
                              Also if your concerned at all about veggie cost, getting more rabbits is sooo not the right thing Imagine if two have health problems at the same time-not unheard of, in fact can often happen. Times vet exams, blood work, x rays, meds etc-by two.

                              Rabbits don’t need vitamin C because they have ablitiy to produce their OWN vitamin C in their bodies. That’s why I asked to see if rabbits have abilities to produce vitaimn A or etc.

                              Very true, guinea pigs and humans are the only mammals who need dietary vitamin C because they don’t have the ability to produce it. But not only do they need other vitamins through diet, their are trace minerals too. Ever heard that you need to eat a variety of foods to be healthy? Same deal. Trace vitamins and minerals are going to be optimal only in a varied diet-and that’s acheived through adding fresh fruits and veggies.

                              Also with Hay being the ideal bunny staple food, pellets as a supplement-veggies should be the bread and butter Eating only pellets or mostly pellets is probably akin to eating pizza all the time-it’s processed and not that healthy.


                            • blackfang
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                                I got email from my vet..
                                “Hi,
                                Rabbits do not need vegetables, but I prefer them to have veges if their GI tracts can handle them. The vitamins are not necessary for life, but they can help the immune system. I have some bunny patients that cannot handle greens at all and I even have some patients who cannot handle pellets or greens and live on hay only. I do not think that veges cause GI problems, but they can exacerbate them if they have a sensitive GI tract. My recommendations are free choice hay, 1 cup of greens twice a day and 1/4 cup of pellets per 5 lb of rabbit twice a day. I will only change this is there are problems. I hope this helps!”

                                She said that vitamins are not necessary for rabbits’ lives? hmm..


                              • Sarita
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                                  Yeah, that doesn’t make sense at all…all humans and animals need vitamins and minerals. Do you think that’s what she meant to say? I would question that.


                                • blackfang
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                                    I tried to research vitamin/minerals that rabbits need through websites.. I found nothing but most websites said rabbits need fiber. I already know that.

                                    I found one website that mentioned hay do have vitamin A for first 6 months. After 6 months, it sorta lack of vitamin A. Not sure about this.

                                    I need to know all the nutrition facts such as vitamins in all kind of hay.. not just protein, fiber, calcium. Then I’ll know what vitamins/minerals are missing and will supply vegetables for rabbits to make up the missing vitamins/minerals.


                                  • Sarita
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                                      Well, I think that’s pretty complicated and you know greens are healthy but it sounds like you like to do research so let us know what you come up with.

                                      There may not be a whole lot out there on pet rabbits though which may be why you aren’t finding anything and you will always get conflicting answers.


                                    • blackfang
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                                        Of course, I LOVE to research! I’m in science major, good habit!

                                        I found a website that mentioned vitamin B and minerals are in oat hay.. very interesting..
                                        hthttp://www.ehow.com/about_5559130…ition.html

                                        UPDATE: 

                                        http://www.ehow.com/about_5559130_oat-hay-nutrition.html

                                        Copy this link if you cant click on it.. idk why it didn’t work.


                                      • Sarita
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                                          That link does not work for me. I imagine there may be quite a bit out there about hay since it’s used for all kinds of animals.


                                        • Sarita
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                                            http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-4/pellets.html

                                            This link has some sources sited at the bottom that you might see if you can find or some more recent resarch from them.


                                          • blackfang
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                                              I decided to research on horse websites because it is easier to find hay nutrition facts there..

                                              I found one..

                                              “Vitamins in hay

                                              Hay contains high levels of vitamins A, E, K, and D.

                                              However, hay that is a year old will have a low vitamin content since vitamins in hay break down with time.”

                                              http://www.equi-therapy.net/equi-therapy/nutrition/feeding-hay-to-horses.shtml

                                              I’ll look for more later. I have to go back to study chemistry -_-


                                            • bunnnnnnie!
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                                                Posted By Taurus on 11/10/2010 01:34 PM
                                                I got email from my vet..
                                                “Hi,
                                                Rabbits do not need vegetables, but I prefer them to have veges if their GI tracts can handle them. The vitamins are not necessary for life, but they can help the immune system. I have some bunny patients that cannot handle greens at all and I even have some patients who cannot handle pellets or greens and live on hay only. I do not think that veges cause GI problems, but they can exacerbate them if they have a sensitive GI tract. My recommendations are free choice hay, 1 cup of greens twice a day and 1/4 cup of pellets per 5 lb of rabbit twice a day. I will only change this is there are problems. I hope this helps!”

                                                She said that vitamins are not necessary for rabbits’ lives? hmm..

                                                 

                                                I read this as the vitamins offered in vegetables are not neccessary to keep the bunny alive, if pellets and hay are being fed.  The immune system comment kind of supports this theory, as many veggies are high in vits B, C, and K.. which are all supportive of immune function.


                                              • bunnnnnnie!
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                                                  As for figuring out the nutritional info on hays.. you won’t find any specific information on that, because it will vary GREATLY.  Alfalfa vs timothy vs oat vs brome vs bermuda… 1st cutting vs 2nd cutting vs 3rd cutting.. how long it’s been stored.. how it was harvested.. the weather conditions it grew in.. so there’s really no way to make a good generalization on what nutritional needs are met by hay.  You can get hay tested and analyzed, but if you’re buying hay, this won’t be foolproof, as you don’t know if bag per bag, if they’re coming from the same grower/source.


                                                • blackfang
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                                                    I’m lab technician! I can get hay tested and analyzed.. only if I have instruments and stuff


                                                  • bunnnnnnie!
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                                                      Posted By Taurus on 11/10/2010 02:47 PM
                                                      I’m lab technician! I can get hay tested and analyzed.. only if I have instruments and stuff

                                                      Yeah I really don’t know anything about the process of testing it, but you can actually mail it to a place that will mail you back the nutritional analysis of the sample.  Maybe worth doing a web search for?
                                                       


                                                    • blackfang
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                                                        I’m sure I’ll have to pay for nutritional analysis of the sample.

                                                        For a strange reason, I felt like I should work on research project during my free time to research on nutrition for rabbits.. I wasn’t pleased that no one research vitamins in hay or something like that. I’m going to ask my former teachers to see if I will able to go in their labs to do my experiments. If they approve but will not pay for supplies like gel, I’m willing to pay for it as long it is cheap. I’ll research on oat, alfalfa, timothy, orchard, and bromine hay (all of them must be oxbow). Then I’ll research on different local farm hays and other hay products to compare the vitamins in hay.

                                                        I will not do three trials for each hay product. I’ll do like 10 times each for more accurate results and will repeat same process again after 6 months and 1 year to see if nutrition values in hay change or not.

                                                        Then probably research on veggies too.

                                                        I felt like when I collect good information, I’ll publish rabbit nutrition book!


                                                      • jerseygirl
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                                                          I’ll buy it! Very cool that you are able to do that testing.

                                                          On Vit D, that is something I had read somewhere once. That sun cured hay is one of the few dietry sources of vit D.

                                                          On the subject of green in the diet – it’s part of their natural diet. Sure, some of the cultivated veggies we buy might not be truly natural for them but they’re more accessible to provide for the majority.  As you know, pellets are a convenience and supplement type food. Sort of like the space food they send up with astronauts maybe…   Nutritionally it covers their needs. Would you want to eat that and only that for life?  No, I wouldn’t.

                                                          Besides *probably* more bio-available vitamins ( & non-synthesized), micro nutrients, proteins, enzymes, fibre & water –  greens provide more than just  nutrition in my mind.

                                                          Personally, I’d like to harvest more of the natural grasses and herbage for my rabbits instead of buying greens at the store. It would be even more natural and much of the time the veg in stores has lost it’s value if it’s been there too long.  My rabbits might not like my idea though as they’ve got a taste for parsley, brussel sprouts, endive etc now.


                                                        • blackfang
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                                                            I asked lab assistant about my research project and she is willing to support me. She told me that I’ll have to tell my professor because she isn’t the “owner” of laboratory. I’ll contact my professor after Thanksgiving break.

                                                            I decided to write a book about rabbit for sure. I want to include everything like we can build rabbits’ cages with cube grids to nutrition facts of hay. Every time, I read “how to take care of rabbit” books, I wasn’t satisfied how the authors wrote. I’m sure you know what I mean. The only problem is I don’t have any good images of different rabbits so is it okay to have several pictures of my two rabbits (ofc it will be professional pictures).

                                                            I used google to search how to publish a book. Wow, it wasn’t easy! -_- I won’t give up anyway


                                                          • Monkeybun
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                                                              I’m sure you can find some rabbit owners somewhere willing to let you use pics of their bunnies…


                                                            • Karla
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                                                                I’ll order your book Yes, it is very difficult to get a book published and most likely you will have to pay for it yourself.

                                                                You can get free images from various sites, such as http://www.sxc.hu – they have rabbits pictures as well. I would not think badly about a book only containing pictures of the same two rabbits, if it is an academic book on rabbit diet, but if it is meant to be a more popular book then I do think you need more rabbits, because people love pictures. Unless though you go for a very personal type of book, that’s about you and your bunnies and your experiences.

                                                                I have a friend who only gives her bunnies herbs, grass and hay. She has collected tons of herbs and dried it for the winter now. I think she actually feeds her bunnies more nutrious stuff than I do with all my veggies. So I have copied her and collected and dried herbs for the winter as well.


                                                              • Beka27
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                                                                  The House Rabbit Handbook and some other rabbit books do have pictures of the author’s rabbits or of rabbits the author knows.

                                                                  But… it may be a wee bit premature to worry about pics just yet. Probably get the content together first tho… lol!

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                                                              Forum DIET & CARE No greens in rabbits’ diets!?!?!?