Let’s talk neuters and personality changes

[Karla]

I was reading this yesterday and I found it really interesting:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-…t-Musk.htm

1. Has anyone noticed any personality changes in the males after the neuter?
2. Anyone who have heard of spays that keep the ovaries? Would you choose this option, if you could?
3. Did your female change her personality after the spay?

—————————–

1. I find it hard to tell if Karl’s personality change was due to the neuter and not the fact that he was no longer a crazy teenager. He was neutered at 9 months, so he should have been neutered at a much earlier age for me to be able to tell.
    
2. I wonder if you can ask your vet to do the spay like that, and not follow the traditional procedure. I guess any vet could do this. But I’m not exactly sure what kind of personality change that goes with loosing the ovaries. I spayed Molly right after getting her, so I wouldn’t know if she changed. But she has such a strong personality that I really cannot imagine that she has changed.

[Karla]

Also, I just have a new point now. Here, it is beginning to be common practice not to neuter dogs until they are fully grown at the age of 2-3 years in order to avoid bone problems, and so that their personality has been fully developed et.c

I was just wondering about this in relation to rabbits. I guess, a rabbit is fully grown at the age of 12 months, and perhaps the same applies for rabbits as for dogs?

Well, just asking for your opinions as I have just been wondering.

[Beka27]

Not sure about the neuters personally, but typically the spays remove both the uterus and ovaries. Ovaries undergo the most cell differentiation during ovulation, so I’m guessing that would be a common site for tumors if left intact.

[Karla]

But not according to Dana Krempel though:

“Because female rabbits have a very high risk of uterine cancer (but the risk of mammary cancer is much lower, and we’re not even such cancers are estrogen-sensitive, and ovarian cancer is almost unknown in rabbits), we have no choice but to remove her uterus, complete with both cervices to be sure there is *no* uterine tissue left to become cancerous. But we are strongly considering leaving her ovaries where they are.”

[Elrohwen]

Interesting discussion. Not sure about dog neuters in Europe, but in the US lots of vets still do early neuters for all dogs other than the giant breeds. The giant breeds do need the extra time for bone development, and I know some people with Newfoundlands who haven’t had them neutered because they believe it’s healthier (and they’re responsible enough to deal with any other issues that arise). But then I know people with smaller breeds whose dogs were neutered before coming home at 12 weeks. So it seems vets are all over the board on that. I haven’t researched it so I don’t know what I would do with a puppy of my own.

I didn’t see any personality change in Otto after his neuter, but he has always been a very quiet and well behaved guy.

[Andi]

Interesting.

I’m sort of wondering how you would remove the uterus and leave overies? and why? Am i reading this correctly?

When i found Ani, she was the sweetest little girl about 5 months old. At 6 months i had her spayed. She came home, healed and turned into a BAG! Lunging at everything, grunting etc. Not what i was expecting. But other thigns in her envoroment changed, she was no longer free run and was being bonded to another bunny, who she became very protective of afterwards.
My 3.5yr old male, didn’t change from what I saw, but he was very new to me and lived a solitary life in his home b4. The others sputered in my care seem to haev stayed the same, just no spraying anymore for the males.

[RabbitPam]

Samantha stopped picking up sailors and using the phone so much, so I guess she changed.

(I’m sorry. Just couldn’t resist. Your discussion above is interesting.)

[Karla]

Posted By Andi on 05/20/2010 11:46 AM
Interesting.

I’m sort of wondering how you would remove the uterus and leave overies? and why? Am i reading this correctly?

When i found Ani, she was the sweetest little girl about 5 months old. At 6 months i had her spayed. She came home, healed and turned into a BAG! Lunging at everything, grunting etc. Not what i was expecting. But other thigns in her envoroment changed, she was no longer free run and was being bonded to another bunny, who she became very protective of afterwards.
My 3.5yr old male, didn’t change from what I saw, but he was very new to me and lived a solitary life in his home b4. The others sputered in my care seem to haev stayed the same, just no spraying anymore for the males.

Well, it is news to me as well, but then again, I have never really looked into the subject. According to Dana Krempel, this is the reason for leaving the ovaries:

“All mammals are strongly influenced by their hormones. Humans are no exception. Many women facing a hysterectomy will opt to keep the ovaries not only for protection of the heart and against bone loss, but also because of the aspects of personality and feelings that change when those all-important gonads are gone. Men who lose their testicles to prostate cancer note those changes, as well.”

So, basically, by leaving the ovaries, you keep the hormones and then strong personality that comes with the hormones.

Basically, one of the reasons I advocate neutering is the fact that rabbits won’t be so hormonally driven (among so many other reasons), but perhaps we are interfering a bit too much with the nature of rabbits, and that we should at least in the case of spay try to keep the ovaries?

But then again, with my limited experience with neutered bunnies, I haven’t noticed a change of personality, but I do know a few people mention this when it comes to dogs.

[Minty]

I didn’t neuter my dog until he was 1.5 years old. He is 95 lbs so a larger breed dog, and thought it was important to let him develop. He was also being shown so couldn’t be neutered. Anyways, I noticed at the 1.5 year mark he was starting to get dominant and snippy with other dogs, especially other males. I found this strange since he was such a sweet and easy going puppy. Anyways, he finished his champion title and I neutered him because I wasn’t interested in breeding. After being neutered this behaviour has diminished and I realize that it was totally hormone driven. I feel bad for dogs that aren’t neutered and aren’t being used for breeding purposes… They become frustrated since their hormones are telling them they have to breed and be the top dog! That’s where you get aggressive dogs a lot of the time, imo.

I think the same goes for rabbits. Although, it is seen more in the female. I don’t think it’s messing with their ‘nature’ too much. The way I see it is that without all those crazy hormones telling them to breed, their true personalities are able to come through. I think hormones are different in humans so it’s hard to compare the two… like when a woman has a hysterectomy or if a man loses his testicles to prostate cancer. Humans are conscious of their ‘personality’ and aware of hormones and controlling mood. I think comparing humans to bunnies and dogs in this situation isn’t effective or accurate.

I was also curious about neutering bunnies so young… most vets advise to neuter as soon as the testicles drop. I’m not sure if this affects bone development or growth as it does in puppies. I know my vet does neuters at 3.5 months, and most bunnies aren’t even full grown until 6-7 months. I’d like to get more info on this too!

ETA: Sully did not change much at all after his neuter. He was always very neat before, the neuter just helped to reinforce his litter box habits. Other than that I haven’t noticed much at all, I think he was just as lazy before as he is now. 

[Monkeybun]

Monkey has definitely calmed down alot since her spay. She still growls at my hubby, but at this point, I think she thinks its fun now

[Lintini]

LOL PAM!

Bun’s still a diva even after the spay, but she’s gotten nicer.
Indy…oh thank god he calmed down. He wasn’t letting me sleep through the night without harassing me all through it. Getting his little Bumblie girlfriend also helped get the mauling off of me and onto her, bwahaha. Although I know I said before my bed is still being used as a bunny race track quite often at 5am and I am nothing but a speed bump. But seriously I am so glad the days of sleeping with my hands under my pillows and head under the blankets are over!!

Personality-wise I notice no huge change, but they are easier to live with now because of it.

[Beka27]

In rabbits, when there is a limited amount of behavioral change following a spay or neuter, they sometimes discover that the ovaries were not removed, or maybe only one testicle was descended so the other was left. So, maybe you could leave the ovaries, but you wouldn’t get the behavioral benefit of hormone reduction. Dana Krempels had another article about waiting to spay until 9-12 months to allow for continued bone growth, so that is another option. I have to wonder tho, as induced ovulators, would females still experience false pregnancy symptoms if ovaries were left intact?

[Lindsay]

I didn’t have Monty neutered until he started showing “problem behaviours”, because our vet told us it wasn’t always necessary if it’s a boy and there are no other rabbits around (there are more heath reasons for spaying girls than boys apparently). But once he got to 5 or 6 months old it was obvious it was going to be necessary – he would circle both me and my boyfriend incessantly and grunt, which was only inconvenient, but then he started peeing on our bed and we decided enough was enough. He also got a fair amount more destructive – suddenly he liked chewing stuff and digging a lot more, and started trying to chew things that he previously hadn’t shown an interest in – but I knew that was more likely to be “teenage behaviour” than “pre-neuter behaviour”.

The peeing and circling stopped pretty much immediately after we had him neutered, but as I expected he is only SLIGHTLY less hyper and destructive. He has his good and bad days, but for the most part we have to take pretty much everything out of reach and we can’t have any wiring even with the plastic cable protectors over it ’cause he just chews through the plastic to the wire. Any wires have to be tucked behind furniture that he can’t get behind.

However, his personality and behaviour towards me and my boyfriend are MUCH better. He is more affectionate and will stay cuddled up to us for longer. He also rarely poops outside of his cage (we might find one poop on the carpet every couple of days), I guess because his desire to mark his territory has lessened. Weirdly, he has started grunting (I think from excitement) when I give him his food, which he didn’t usually before the neuter – now he goes completely nuts the second he hears me rustle his bag of pellets (and sometimes, mistakenly, if I open a bag of M&Ms in the vicinity). He still won’t be picked up or carried of course, even for a second – we have to get him in his carrier just to put him bag in his cage at night.

Essentially – his personality has improved. He’s just as attached to us, in fact more so, and some of the problem behaviours have gone, but of course not all of them.. But that’s to be expected since he’s a “teenager” I guess, so with any luck he might calm more with age.

[Andi]

Posted By Beka27 on 05/21/2010 04:32 AM 
I have to wonder tho, as induced ovulators, would females still experience false pregnancy symptoms if ovaries were left intact?

I was wondering that as well, and if the overies were in tact, but the urterus removed, where do the eggs drop to? I would think the ‘need to breed’ would still be strong, causing the animal to see have that urge.
I’m trying to picture overies but no uterus, and it’s confusing me how it all works LOL…

 

[Karla]

I’m not sure about that ovary-thing either…I mean, we spay to keep the female from being sexually frustrated as well, and that is a huge factor to me. But perhaps I’m generally too impressed by Krempel and thus not being critical as I would have been a common vet that had put forward this idea.

Beka, I’ve been trying to find that article/text you refer to about the bone growth. Do you have a link?

That part I really believe is true.

[Beka27]

I’m not finding that source either. It was one of the all experts posts by Dr. Krempels and there are so many. I should have bookmarked it when I found it, but I didn’t.

[KatnipCrzy]

Keeping the ovaries will still keep the hormone related behavior.  Dogs, cats, bunnies are spayed with ovaries removed- because who WANTS a spayed pet that acts like they are in heat or wanting to mate?  And is is a much more difficult surgery to go back into the abdomen and find the ovaries or any remaining uterine tissue if that is the case- it becomes more of an exploratory surgery to try to find it.

As for not neutering or spaying dogs until older- while MAYBE there is some reasoning behind it (I have not researched it)- only about 1% of the human population might be RESPONSIBLE enough to have an intact dog for that long and not have any oops litters.  I see it ALL THE TIME at work- people think the father dog will not mate the daughter dog (since they are related) and that their female dog ALWAYS just goes out the front door to potty and comes right back- so no need to watch her like a hawk.  So purely for pet overpopulation reasons alone it is best to speuter early.

And hormonal behavior CAN become learned behavior.  For example – male dogs that mark in the house- neutered them should help- but there is certainly no guarantees that it will ever stop the behavior that the dog has learned to do.

I think most pets are happier and better pets when not driven by hormones to mate, protect, dominate, etc.

Cotton was a terror until she was spayed with the grunting and lunging- so only removing the uterus would have meant she could not get pregnant- but I was happy when her hormones calmed and she became the loving bunny she once was.

And Griffin was horrid with the litterbox until he was neutered- and his urine was musky and stinky.  I cannot imagine him only having a vasectomy and keeping his testicles but just not being able to impregnate.  Our house would be hell literally I think with all the bunny hormones running amuck.

How do female bunnies cope with the hormones to mate- but without the ability to?  Are there constant false pregnancies and territorial behavior.  I would want my bunnies to develop an emotional bond to each other- not one driven by hormones and mating (even with a result of no offspring).

[Sarita]

Katnip, very good interesting post and observations!

[Karla]

Katnip, of course I agree with the behavioural and mental aspect in regard to rabbit neuter, but I do think it is worth considering the fact that dogs should not be neutered before they are grown. So, in regard to dogs, I completely disagree with you (besides the fact that nervous dogs or dogs with certain behavioural problems need the testostorone or else you get a real problem dog), and I do find it interesting that the bone problem is becoming a big issue in dogs neutered too early, and Dana Krempel mentions this as well in rabbits. So, it is an issue that I for one will keep an eye on to see if research reveals more in the future about neutering bunnies too early.

[Beka27]

But a big thing, like Katnip put so well, as far as what age to spay/neuter… it’s up to the owners to be responsible in the first place. For me (and some of the other leaders as well), one BIG PET PEEVE is when people continue to acquire rabbits before they spay/neuter the ones they have. We’ve seen so many “oops” litters on BB and it’s usually always either two baby bunnies and they don’t know the sex, or they were waiting to get them spay/neutered but they escaped and mated. So it may be beneficial to wait a bit longer to alter, BUT if you’re going to wait, be smart and only have ONE unaltered rabbit at a time.

Katnip also touched on hormonal behavior becoming learned. We’ve seen that too. Especially with male bunnies, if they are allowed to go too long unneutered, even after altering, they may still spray urine b/c it’s now a habit and no longer just hormonal.

[KatnipCrzy]

I would really have to see a lot more data on the research to make any solid decisions- but some good points have been brought up.  I think it will take many more years of accumulated data for any real proof about later neutering- especially in bunnies- having any benefit.

I just know that I strongly dislike most/all mating behaviors for pets and the complications it causes in the household- marking, humping, aggression- and stinky bunny pee.

And rabbit rescues will never be able to follow a recommended guidleline like waiting to speuter- it would decrease potential adopters and might lead to more bunnies being born.

The average pet owner is not going to be willing to put up with a cat, bunny or dog marking in the house- they usually get tossed outside at some point- so it might be a factor of weighing the lesser evils.

[The Rabbit]

My bun was a very sweet baby bun. Snuggly and cuddly and wonderful. then he hit his teenage weeks and became a terror! Munching carpet like it was hay, running away and not letting em pick him up, throwing massive tantrums in his cage during time out and bedtime…Then came the neuter. I’d say he kept qualities of both. He rarely chews carpet or anything naughty(we have to be extra careful when my boyfriend comes to stay, he’ll do anything to get his attention). He does still love cuddling and petting, but now he’s a little more ‘sassy’. he’ll run and hide if he knows he’s done something naughty and he’ll feet flick the whole way. He’s hard to grab to put in his cage, but like I said he still loves his cuddle time(especially if it means his blankey and/or his stuffed bun get to come) In fact, sometimes when I go to get him he’ll run back to his stuffed bun so i’ll take them both. usually when he senses we’re going to the vet.

So, after the neuter the bun will likely retain qualities from when he was a baby and a teenage rabbit.

[Troller]

I know this is an old topic but one I’ve started getting interested in. A lot of good points are made, but I’m curious as to one myself.

A lot of the bad behaviors we see in are pets are hormonal, but at adolescents aren’t most creatures. But as they mature wouldn’t a great many drives be diminished, especially if their is an outlet in a sense (an opposite gender mate)?

Now i now people aren’t crazy about humping animals and the extra’s that go with it but I wonder if there has ever been a true study of a mating pair of animals who couldn’t produce but were allowed to mature together.

Personally I think removing the presence of hormones does change change the behavior of said animals to a far more docile state as seen across the animal spectrum but does it really allow the true personality to shine or just echoes of it? I’m not necessarily saying I, or anyone, would find the alternative ideal but just how would we know in fairness for sure?

Just things I’m curious about.

[Roberta]

It’s a very old thread Troller and one of the admins will lock it shortly as it is preferred any posts that have been inactive for over a month not be responded to. I suggest you start a new thread…

[Sarita]

Thank you Roberta. Yes Troller do not pull up old posts this is very confusing to board members as they reply to the original post and not the post that is piggybacked on it. I am going to lock this.

[Author]

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