BINKYBUNNY FORUMS > DIET & CARE > Worried Daddy!
Last Post by bunfoolop at 10/29/2012 8:17 AM (38 Replies)
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User is Offline Murasaki
Kanagawa, Japan
89 posts Send Private Message
10/08/2012 2:46 PM

OK I have come in to a problem ... My little girl will not eat the pellets unless they look like this.

This is the pellets put in the blender and then water added to make this ... Now when she eats this she then stops drinking water and when she goes pee is it dark yellow and like syrup ... I just freaked out ... 

I have gone out and brought her hay last night and it is the Timothy Hay and she refused to eat it, pulling it out of the box and throwing a tantrum over it.... any idea please....


User is Offline bullrider76543
Joplin MO
1291 posts Send Private Message
10/08/2012 2:49 PM
hmm I would call your vet... and keep trying on the hay
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User is Offline Roberta
Wanneroo, Western Australia
3179 posts Send Private Message
10/08/2012 3:10 PM
Can you try some different kinds of hay, mine love the yellow oaten hay.... When I first started bying meadow hay Nermal was the only one that would eat it and then the others decided they rather liked the sweet smell and insisted on having it too. So now they have both and like them at different times of the day.
I also agree with Bullrider on a trip to the vet... It certainly won't do any harm and might pick up any dental problems early.
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User is Offline Murasaki
Kanagawa, Japan
89 posts Send Private Message
10/08/2012 3:25 PM
She has just gone pee again and it is OK now... I have decided to trick her .. She is only 257g so pellets she needs is only 14g so I have given her 7g of pellets and 7g of the blended pellets ... I have rolled up the blended pellet mix in to the same size as the dried pellets and mixed them all together, so will see if she eats them that way (on knees praying).. I am watching her like a hawk at the moment and she had gone stupid sprinting about the house and doing binkies everywhere ... she has taken a good drink of water about 5 minutes ago... I will look at getting other hay tonight when the girlfriend comes over ..

Sorry I am new to rabbits and everything I am reading I am walking on egg shells for my little girl .. Keeping Cats were easy .. Rabbits OMG!

User is Offline Murasaki
Kanagawa, Japan
89 posts Send Private Message
10/08/2012 3:25 PM

Thanks Everyone .. 


User is Offline Memarie
88 posts Send Private Message
10/08/2012 4:04 PM
Sounds like you have a little Diva =) My first bunny was like that, haha. The only thing I can think of is to try different hay. Luna goes crazy for alfalfa, is alright with timothy, but turns her nose up at orchard grass. As for water, I'm not sure how long you have had Yuki chan now but when I first brought Luna home she barely touched her water for the first 2-3 days. I was worried sick! But once she settled in she was fine.
Also, like everyone else has already said, a vet visit is a good idea. Good luck! =)

User is Offline Murasaki
Kanagawa, Japan
89 posts Send Private Message
10/08/2012 4:13 PM

This is a good read for rabbit pee ... 

Rabbit Urinalysis


User is Offline bmt87
309 posts Send Private Message
10/08/2012 5:15 PM
Posted By Murasaki on 10/08/2012 06:25 PM
She has just gone pee again and it is OK now... I have decided to trick her .. She is only 257g so pellets she needs is only 14g so I have given her 7g of pellets and 7g of the blended pellets ... I have rolled up the blended pellet mix in to the same size as the dried pellets and mixed them all together, so will see if she eats them that way (on knees praying).. I am watching her like a hawk at the moment and she had gone stupid sprinting about the house and doing binkies everywhere ... she has taken a good drink of water about 5 minutes ago... I will look at getting other hay tonight when the girlfriend comes over ..

Sorry I am new to rabbits and everything I am reading I am walking on egg shells for my little girl .. Keeping Cats were easy .. Rabbits OMG!

I'm sure one of the forum leaders will chime in on this - but it might be best to give her unlimited access to the pellets.  I know I read in one of your previous threads that you are unsure of her age but I think it might be in her/your best interest to give it a try.  Here's a link to the recommended dietary needs from HRS.

If you try sprinkling the pellets about at night in her cage - you could even go as far as count them....in fact, I would...try like 100 pellets and make it easy - I bet she eats them.  Even if you wake up and there are still 90 pellets it proves that she can eat them and might just be choosing the mushy stuff because it's 'easier' and she's getting spoiled (for lack of a better word because we all spoil our buns ).

Not all rabbits are this difficult - this one just seems EXTREMELY young.

http://www.rabbit.org/faq/sections/diet.html#babies

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User is Offline Murasaki
Kanagawa, Japan
89 posts Send Private Message
10/08/2012 6:31 PM

OK alfalfa .... As is sprouts, fully grown or dried ??


User is Offline lindsay715
NJ, USA
149 posts Send Private Message
10/08/2012 6:36 PM
I think they meant alfalfa hay Alfalfa tends to be the hay of choice for younger rabbits

User is Offline lindsay715
NJ, USA
149 posts Send Private Message
10/08/2012 6:41 PM
also, rabbit urine can be creamy or syrupy - that isn't uncommon. their urine is more concentrated than some other domestic pets.

User is Offline Murasaki
Kanagawa, Japan
89 posts Send Private Message
10/08/2012 11:29 PM

Update : Yuki chan only ate the blended up pellets, she picked out the blended ones from the dry ones once the blended ones were all eaten she refused to eat the rest, she would just sniff and then look at me like saying "Oi Slave you know what I need!"

14g of dried pellets mixed with water to make the paste becomes 52g in total, 

I have stuck a few boxes together and cut holes out and made a maze for her, at the moment she is going crazy running in one side and out the other, then turning around and doing the same again, so far she has played over 1 hour, I have become tired just watching her, bunnies have a lot of energy I have come to notice.


User is Offline Monkeybun
Hillsboro, Oregon
10458 posts Send Private Message
10/08/2012 11:36 PM
It may be because she is so young still, fully solid food isn't what she is wanting to eat. I'd stick with the blended pellets for now, if at all possible. keep trying loose pellets over time, maybe she will grow out of it soon.

User is Offline jerseygirl
Australia
14807 posts Send Private Message
10/09/2012 12:44 AM
Yikes! She is training you. Be careful. Lol

I'd keep trying with the hay. Offer a big pile of it in a litterbox and maybe sprinkle some dry pellets through the hay. She may just play at first but get curious enough to nibble on it. Mine do a lot of their hay eating over night.

Alfalfa is called lucerne hay in Australia. Im not certain whether you can get it in Japan or what it is called there. It's probably labelled depending on what country it's coming from. I think in Asia there may be a brand available called Alfalfa King from the US. It does a variety of hays though.

That she's running around like a nutter and eating something is great though. Try relax. : )

User is Offline Murasaki
Kanagawa, Japan
89 posts Send Private Message
10/09/2012 12:57 AM

She will not touch the Timothy Hay, I have a pile of that in her litter box and also on a plate and she refused to touch it, I have found Alfalfa Hay and will be getting it on Thursday.  Dry pellets is a complete NO NO she made that clear!

As for training me, too late and she knows it. ... She has just taken a break from Binkies and doing the Bunny 500 to refuel on food and water, she will then clean herself, have a bit of a break and then drive me nutz for the rest of the night, time here is about 2000hrs so I expect she will wear out again about 2300hrs ..

Edited at 2246 : Reading the forum and Yuki chan is relaxing and watching me, she has been in this position for 45 minutes there about.


User is Offline Aylnine
60 posts Send Private Message
10/09/2012 8:20 AM
Hehe, your bun is adorable! Mine is a little blueblood menace as well -- friendly towards people but give him the wrong food and he'll destroy everything.

It's possible that your bun is just giving you a hard time because she knows if she holds out she'll get the pellet paste. If she's a little older (already spayed) it might be okay to try and force her to eat the hard pellets by not giving her the paste. Their digestive systems have to stay active, though, so I don't know of a safe period to "starve" her. I'd guess I would give her 12 hrs max, and if she still refuses then give her food.

It's also possible that she dislikes the hard stuff because of her teeth, but if you've already gone to a vet and checked her then she's probably just being very picky.

User is Offline Murasaki
Kanagawa, Japan
89 posts Send Private Message
10/09/2012 12:24 PM

Last night I left out 19g of Pellets and no paste, this morning the 19g of pellets were not touched, she did not eat during the night, not even 1 pellet, this morning she was scratching on my room shoji at 0610hrs, I placed her at the pellets and she took off, as soon as I put down the paste she dived in ... So she will not eat the pellets period, well not at the moment. ... 

I weighed her this morning and she is now 278g so she has gone up in weight in the past 24 hours. At the moment she is doing the bunny 500 and as I am laying on the floor she is using my laptop as a spring board for flight! 

The girlfriend is sick today so she will stay home and look after Yuki chan while I take a trip to the next city to get the Alfalfa Hay and talk to the local vet on feed.


User is Offline tanlover14
3391 posts Send Private Message
10/10/2012 6:34 AM
Your little girl is a RIOT. Hahahahaha, she is so cute and SOOO demanding. Such a typical girl!
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User is Offline bullrider76543
Joplin MO
1291 posts Send Private Message
10/10/2012 6:37 AM
boy she really is a diva huh?
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User is Offline Skipper's Mama
Florida
1252 posts Send Private Message
10/10/2012 2:05 PM
Your little girl is so funny! And finally! Another bun that uses the laptop as a spring board! xDDD My Skipper loves to climb all over my laptop and spring off of it. >.<

User is Offline Murasaki
Kanagawa, Japan
89 posts Send Private Message
10/12/2012 2:33 AM

I watched today as Yuki chan decided to eat the pine shavings in her little box, I was expecting her to spit them out again but she did not ... so started looking on the net about it and came across this 




The Truth About Pine Shavings


aka Pine shavings are safe to use

By Corinne Fayo

Hop Back to Bucky's

This article has been published in the following newsletters:
Mt. Ears (12/97)
Valley Voice (9/97) 
PGNDRC Newsletter (1/98) 
The News Disrict II NDRC (3/98) 

This article has been reviewed by Carol Green a rabbit breeder with a Ph.D. in Pharmacology and Toxicology, her area of research is drug metabolizing enzymes and she has more than 80 publications in the field. She said the article is accurate.

And by a medical doctor & research writer who had studied the HME system for six months. Her comments to me were; "If all the phenols do is to induce some of the microsomal enzymes, that's nothing to be concerned about."

This article started out as an internet post on the alt.pet.rabbit list because I wanted to find out the truth about pine shavings. I have used pine shavings for as long as I've had rabbits and have never had respiratory problems, cancer, or liver disease in my animals. I have not heard stories or rumors of problems, just posts or articles on the internet which often didn't cite studies or articles but made outlandish claims of health problems. I did e-mail Harriman and Flentke regarding their articles, and the "Rat "Lady e-mailed me once and asked if I had read certain studies which I had, I let her know she mis-quoted a study never heard back. To date no one has challenged the information in the article, rather they say since I'm not a Ph.D or a vet I can't be believed, or the new one that since it wasn't published in a major scientific journal that it is to be discounted. It was never intended to be published in a scientific journal, rather to explain what the studies found about pine and cedar. However the other articles on the 'net which claim a danger in using shavings also have not been published in any major scientific journal, why the double standard?

The Truth About Pine Shavings


The great pine/cedar debate has been raging on the internet for quite awhile and many people have been mislead about the use of softwood (pine and cedar) bedding for small animals. Many people have been spreading incorrect, inaccurate information and have misinterpreted several scientific studies. Actually reading the studies and correctly interpreting them reveal there isn't a danger in using softwood bedding for animals. After reading this article you will learn that treated shavings are safe and even recommended by veterinarians, the effects untreated softwood beddings cause is not harmful to the animals, and the claims they cause problems such as liver disease, damage, or cancer are not correct.

Hepatic Microsomal Enzymes (HME)
The real "debate" is over whether or not untreated pine and cedar shavings are a danger. It has been proven that untreated pine and cedar contain an inducing agent of HME activity. HMEs are by-products of the liver after processing drugs. "It is simply the way the body-or more specifically, the liver-handles many of the elements it comes into contact with each day."(20). I was also lucky enough to run into a medical doctor/research writer who had studied the HME system for six months. Her comments to me were; "If all the phenols do is to induce some of the microsomal enzymes, that's nothing to be concerned about." She continued with "I know that there are lots of things that both induce and suppress microsomal enzymes in humans, and it's no big deal except when it causes a concomitantly administered drug to be metabolized differently. When that occurs, all you have to do is to adjust the dose of the drug appropriately." After reading the studies which are most often quoted as providing evidence untreated shavings are harmful I must state I don't see where any demonstrate a danger. What I have learned from the studies about HME is that there are many factors which can affect this sensitive system and cause an increase or decrease in activity (2,3,4). This is a partial list from one study (4): Table 1 list of factors affecting drug disposition: air exchange and composition, barometric pressure, cage design, cedar and other softwood bedding, cleanliness, coprophagia, diet, gravity, handling, humidity, light cycle, noise level, temperature, age, cardiovascular function, castration and hormone replacement, circadian and seasonal variations, dehydration, disease, fever, gastrointestinal function, genetic constitution, hepatic blood flow, malnutrition, starvation, pregnancy, sex, shock, stress..." "Dirty environments should now be added to the growing list of factors that affect the extremely sensitive hepatic microsomal system for metabolizing drugs. Among others, these factors include, age; sex; strain; litter of origin; painful stimuli; ambient temperature; degree of crowding; time of day or season of drug administration; hormonal; nutritional; and physiological status; and type of bedding." (2)

As you can see by the factors listed many things can set off a change in HME activity. Dr Hawley's article also mentioned grapefruit juice can induce HME, as did the medical doctor I spoke to (20). So why are the scientists so concerned by HME and the inducing effects of pine and cedar? Several studies mentioned the problem of getting standardized test results in pharmacological studies (1,2,3,4). "Differences in the capacity of various beddings to induce may partially explain divergent results of studies on drug- metabolizing enzymes." (1) "These experiments offer an explanation for differences in the results of studies on drug-metabolizing enzymes in mice and rats." (1) "These numerous factors contribute to large day-to-day variations that have become a major problem impeding investigation of drug disposition and response in laboratory animals." (4) "These data suggest that commercial bedding materials differ in their ability to affect microsomal enzymes. Thus, interlaboratory variability in basal enzyme activities reported in the literature may be partly due to bedding materials used in animal cages." (19) "Pharmacological and biochemical investigations of hepatic microsomal enzymes (HME) in rodents have been plagued by large day-today variations in control values for these enzyme activities" (4).
It seems HME activity to the scientists is actually a sort of "background noise" in their experiments, but important to note so test results can be accurately interpreted.

Do the scientists feel untreated pine and cedar should not be used in any laboratory? Not from what I have read in the studies. "Rejection of all softwood beddings because they are potent inducers of hepatic microsomal enzymes does not appear justified." (3). However in an effort to standardize certain test results it is suggested untreated softwood not be used (6). "Softwood beddings have been used, but the use of untreated softwood shavings and chips is contraindicated for some protocols because they can affect animals' metabolism (Vesell 1967, Vesell and others 1973, 1976)." (6). "White spruce may provide a relatively inexpensive alternative to hardwood for studies that require bedding that does not alter barbiturate sleeptime" (3). I think the above quotes illustrate that the inducing effect of untreated softwood shavings is important only to the scientific community in the process of studying drugs and their effects. In addition Dr Hawley writes that "Nearly every commercial laboratory today uses pine, cedar, or other hardwood beddings, except when conducting specific drug metabolism studies." (20).

I did come across an interesting result shown in several studies, accumulation of urine and feces which increase ammonia levels cause a decrease in HME activity (2,3,4). Now we all know increasing ammonia levels can cause damage in our animals. It has been associated with causing increased susceptibility to Pasturella infections and respiratory damage. "The present experiments reveal that drug metabolism in hepatic microsomes was inhibited when urine and feces of rodents were not removed twice daily but permitted to accumulate for 1 week. Inhibition of drug metabolism in rats kept under these conditions may arise from hepatic toxicity due to increased concentrations of ammonia (5) in such environments." (2). May I also point out that I have yet to find in a study a reference to pine or cedar causing hepatic toxicity. Dr Hawley also points out that the presence of these enzymes do not suggest there is damage to the liver (20).

I also found another study which reported that oral administration of praziquantel at a dosage of 1600 mg/kg and 2000 mg/kg caused a significant decrease in 3 drug-metabolizing hepatic enzymes (16). The rabbits who received the dosage of 2000 mg/kg all died within 10-20 hours. In another study rabbits were given aflatoxin to see the effects it would have on liver enzymes (17). None died but body weight gain was altered and again a decrease was noted in some HME, "Biochemical exploration of plasma components revealed a dose-dependent hepatotoxicity characterized by cytolysis and cholestasis." (17). And finally in a study comparing the activity of HME in rats given single or repetitive fluke infections HME decreases were noted (18). Given this evidence I can't come to the conclusion that increased HME activity is a sign of harm being done to a small animal.

Pet owners also argue that untreated cedar and pine cause shortened barbiturate sleeptimes and that would be harmful for an animal undergoing surgery. The increased HME activity does shorten barbiturate sleeptimes in the studies (1,2,3,4) but note that the scientists were testing for this, not performing surgery. The studies have found that sleeptimes were shortest for cedar shavings compared to the softwoods (3,19). There were also differences among different types of pine bedding with white spruce not significantly different than hardwoods but longer than white pine (3). "In other studies, mice kept on pine beddings exhibited hexobarbital sleeptimes intermediate between those of mice kept on red cedar or Douglas Fir (9), and intermediate between mice kept on red cedar or ground corn cobs (10)." (3). Heat treated pine shavings have been shown not to alter sleeptime in comparison to control animals (19).

But does any of the above really affect us and our pets? I don't believe so, there are many factors which affect HME and therefore barbiturate sleeptime (2,3,4,). A study also found increased ammonia levels alter sleeptime and that lowering the room temperature lengthens sleeptime (3). The same study also showed that two different strains of mice studied had significantly different sleeptimes. Also consider this quote "No alteration in the hexobarbital concentration in the brain at the time of restoration of the righting response occurred on any of the softwood beddings tested." (1). "While sleeptimes are decreasing and the microsomal enzyme activity is increasing, the amounts of hexobarbital in the brain on awakening remain unaltered in mice put on softwood bedding; thus, the responsiveness of the receptor sites seems unaffected by softwood bedding." (1). I have not been able to find any scientific references or entries in veterinary books warning of a danger in regard to surgery when animals are exposed to softwood shavings. If altered barbiturate sleeptimes due to softwood exposure were critical during surgery I would think there would be a warning about it.

I also found an interesting section in the Harkness and Wagner book relating to injectable anesthetics in rats. It is stated that sodium pentobarbitol used in rats "poses considerable risk" (7) pg.109. "Pentobaribitol also has poor analgesic properties in rats and produces profound hypothermia and causes excitement on induction (Wixson et al., 1987a,c,d). The young, the females, cooled animals, and possibly the albinos are more susceptible to the drug, whereas males, animals receiving low caloric diets, and animals on cedar bedding are more resistant." (7) Pg 109. The same book also states pentobarbital is not recommend for rabbits.

Heat Treated Shavings
Heat treated pine shavings are fine for use as bedding and litter for small animals including rabbits. The first piece of evidence is the fact that many people have been using pine shavings for years without any ill effect to their rabbit(s). The next pieces are what the veterinary books and others have to say about the use of shavings for litter. Harkness and Wagner Pg 61: "Bedding, which may be paper, sawdust, or soft pine, aspen, or cedar shavings should be nonallergenic, dust free, inedible, absorbent, nontoxic, and free of pathogenic organisms. Soft pine and cedar wood shavings are used for pet rodent bedding because of their pleasant aroma. However, because volatile hydrocarbons from these shavings may stimulate microsomal enzymes, they are avoided as bedding material for research animals. Softwood shavings and tissue paper make excellent rodent nesting material" (7) TBLR Pg 29 "Bedding must be used in nest boxes. It may be straw, hay, excelsior, wood shavings, or other such material." (8). Hillyer and Quesenberry pg 292 small rodent section: "Pine shavings remain the most commonly used bedding for small pet rodents in many parts of North America. Corncob products and recycled paper products are excellent for certain rodents such as gerbils and dwarf hamsters. Cedar shavings also are popular but their use is controversial. Cedar has been shown to affect microsomal oxidative liver enzymes. Although these changes affect factors such as drug metabolism, no clinical signs associated with them have been documented." (10) Rabbit Production Pg 90 "The nest box should ...contain bedding of hay, straw, shavings, or similar material." Pg 93 "If the does are being fed a ration consisting only of pellets, they may eat any palatable material used for bedding, and in this case softwood shavings...may be used" (9) If the use of softwood bedding was dangerous why on earth would any of these books mention it as good bedding material. All of these books are recent publications and the studies many cite showing a "danger" were published closer to 30 years ago.

Finally we have evidence treated pine is safe from the scientific studies pet owners often quote from (1,3,4,19). The process of heat treating removes the HME inducing agent as demonstrated in the above mentioned studies. It is also mentioned in the National Institute of Health guide to Laboratory animals "Heat treatments applied before bedding materials are used to reduce the concentration of aromatic hydrocarbons" (6). "By two different experimental approaches Wade et al. (47) showed that cedrol and cedrene were active agents in the inductive response of mice to cedarwood bedding. In the first experiment cedar shavings from which cedrol and cedrene had been extracted...produced hexobarbital sleeping times indistinguishable from those observed in control mice housed on inert corncob bedding." (4). I also offer this quote from an HRS educator I wrote to "There are some shavings which are safe, and these are the kiln-dried pine."

I have also heard the rumor cedar causes cancer. I found three studies (11,12,13) and none of them came to the conclusion cedar bedding caused or contributed to the occurrence of cancer. "From these results, the high incidence of cancer in the C3H-AvyfB strain could not be attributed to the routine use of cedar shavings in the bedding material." (11). "Hepatoma incidence in males at 18 months of age was not affected by the presence or absence of cedar shavings in the bedding " (12). "There was no evidence that the cedar shavings were carcinogenic." (13).

Sorting Through Rumors
The arguments presented by those against softwood bedding often sound convincing on the surface, however closer inspection reveals discrepancies. For example the HRS has made statements that softwood bedding has caused liver disease in rabbits they have fostered and caused the death of rabbits during surgery. I have read the article by HRS founder Marinell Harriman, "Litterboxes and Liver Disease" and question her conclusions. Apparently HRS began investigating softwood bedding after one rabbit died during a routine spay surgery. They maintain that rabbits housed on pine or cedar may risk death during surgery, however they also have made statements that they have not lost many rabbits during spays or neuters. They stopped using softwood bedding after Sarah the rabbit died in 1989 so prior to her death they must not have had problems with surgery on other rabbits exposed to softwood. The article also discussed several foster rabbits had elevated liver enzymes and some had liver disease. Dr Hawley points out that the enzymes tested by veterinarians in a serum or plasma chemistry panel are "leakage enzymes" and not the same enzymes the researchers studied in the softwood bedding experiments (20).

So what could explain the liver disease in the HRS foster rabbits? I checked into liver disease in rabbits, there is very little about it but what I did find is hepatic coccidiosis, which causes an enlarged liver and it is contagious (7,8,9). I would assume the HRS members had adopted the rabbits that had liver disease so it is possible that the rabbits were exposed to hepatic coccidiosis, I feel it is a pretty big leap to assume untreated shavings caused their deaths. From TBLR: Pg 206 long section on hepatic coccidiosis, clinical signs included enlarged liver. pg 267: Liver cancer: "The tumor appears to have little potential as a research model, primarily because of the difficulty of case findings." (8). The common causes of liver spots in rabbits are hepatic coccidiosis, migrating tapeworm larvae, Tyzzer's disease, and colibacillosis (7). So there doesn't seem to be any evidence linking untreated softwoods to liver disease or other problems in rabbits.

Another opponent of softwood bedding is Debbie "The Rat Lady" Ducommun who wrote a long article pointing out the "dangers" of softwood bedding. She stated "Because of the toxic effects of softwood shavings, laboratories have pretty much stopped using them for their animals." Well as we now know this is not the reason some labs would not use them. Also where is the evidence that their effect is toxic? The liver disease connection was also brought up and she stated "unless these animals [rabbits housed on softwood] received full autopsies at death with no sign of enlarged livers or liver disfunction, respiratory infection, or altered immune system, how can they claim that the pine or cedar did not affect them?" I submit that even with a full autopsy how can you tell softwood did, afterall the animal died of something so we would expect to see problems. An enlarged liver is a sign of hepatic coccidiosis (8) so that can't be used as proof. And we know there are other causes of respiratory infection and other things that can alter the immune system. Also obesity can cause elevated liver enzymes and contribute to problems. An autopsy showing the above problems would not be proof that softwood bedding or HME induction caused liver damage.

I think there has been too much "interpreting" of scientific studies and that is what is causing the great pine/cedar scare. As an example let's look at chloroform. If you have municipal water then you and your animals are being exposed to chloroform. Is this harmful? What do the studies say, "Present in the water supplies of many of our cities in concentrations reaching 311ug/1, according to the Environmental Protection Agency, chloroform has also been identified as a contaminant of the air. Thus chloroform can gain entry and accumulate in organisms by both the oral and inhalational routes. From the point of view of this symposium, the question of the effects on laboratory animals of environmental exposure to chloroform is raised. Chloroform is toxic to both the liver and kidney of laboratory animals (12), liver tumors arising after chronic chloroform administration (13)." (4).

It looks like it is, and if you have been giving your animals municipal water you are killing them! Make sure you get a full autopsy done after they die and check for liver and kidney damage as well as respiratory problems to "prove" the chloroform was the cause. Oh wait a minute the study says a little more, "Chloroform is only one of a large number of newly identified environmental pollutants to which laboratory animals are being continuously exposed: continuous exposure of laboratory animals to chloroform, as well as to many other environmental pollutants, could affect the responsiveness of these animals under a wide range of experimental conditions." (4). Well I guess the scientists weren't warning us of the dangers of using municipal water afterall, just discussing how it could affect experimental data.

We and our animals are exposed continually to different "pollutants" in our environment, what matters is the health of an individual and the concentration of pollutants they are exposed to. Some chemicals in small concentrations are harmless but in larger doses are lethal. An example of this is benzoic acid in Listerine. Benzoic acid is toxic if ingested in large enough quantities, the amount in Listerine is well below that amount and therefore is safe for use in humans. It is important not to over-interpret what scientific studies are showing us.

In closing I just want to say I still have not read, experienced, or heard anything that leads me to believe the use of pine shavings are harmful to rabbits. What I have read and experienced shows me they are safe. I still won't use cedar because in the past I heard it could be toxic for a rabbit if they ingest too much of it, plus it has a very strong odor. I included many quotes in this article so you are able to read exactly what the scientists have discovered about softwood bedding and the effects on HME. If one closely looks at the evidence offered that pine shavings are harmful you will see the arguments are weak and lack evidence. Dr Hawley reports pet retailers are being subjected to anger from animal rights advocates who accuse them of selling "dangerous" bedding material (20). It's too bad these people didn't first read the studies instead of subscribing to the "I heard it was bad, so it must be true" theory. But those of you reading this now know more than you ever wanted to about softwood shavings and HME!

References:
(1) "Induction of Drug-Metabolizing Enzymes in Liver Microsomes of Mice and Rats by Softwod Bedding" Vesell 1967, Science.
(2)"Hepatic Drug Metabolism in Rats: Impairment in a dirty Environment" 1973 Vesell, Lang, White, Passananti, Tripp, Science
(3) "Barbiturate Sleeptime in Mice Exposed to Autoclaved or Unautoclaved Wood Beddings." Cunliffe-Beamer, Freeman, Myers 1981, Laboratory Animal Science
(4)"Environmental and Genetic Factors Affecting the Response of Laboratory animals to Drugs" Vesell, Lang, White, Passananti, Hill, Clemens, Liu, Johnson. 1976, Federation Proceedings Vol 35 #5.
(5)Bacterial counts associated with recycled newspaper bedding. 1990 Hogan, Smith, Todhunter, Schoenberger
(6) From the"Guide for the Care and Use of Laboratory Animals" formerly called the NIH Guide
(7) Harkness & Wagner Biology and Medicine of Rabbits and Rodents 4th ed 1995. 
(8)TBLR 2nd Ed, Manning, Ringler, Newcomer 1994
(9) Rabbit Production 7th ed., McNitt, Patton, Lukefahr, Cheeke 1996
(10) Ferrets, Rabbits, and Rodents: Clinical Medicine and Surgery; Hillyer and Quesenberry 1997
(11) Possible Carcinogenic effects of cedar shavings in bedding of C3H-Avy fB mice. Vlahakis G, J Natl Cancer Inst. 1977
(12) Spontaneous hepatomas in mice inbred from Ha:ICR Swiss stock: effects of sex, cedar shavings in bedding, and immunization with fetal liver or hepatoma cells. Jacobs BB, Dieter DK. J Natl Cancer Inst. 1978
(13) Testing for possible effects of cedar wood shavings and diet on occurence of mammary gland tumors and hepatomas in C3H-A-vy and C3H-Avy-fB mice.Heston WE, J Natl Cancer Inst, 1975
(14)Bacterial counts associated with recycled newspaper bedding, Hogan JS, Smith KL, Todhunter DA, Schoenberger PS. J Dairy Science 1990
(15) Comparison of in vitro drug metabolism by lung, liver, and kidney of several common laboratory species. Litterst CL, Mimnaugh EG, Reagan RL, Gram TE, Drug Metab Dispos, 1975
(16) The effect of praziqunatel on the activities of some drug-metabolizing hepatic enzymes in rabbits. Kheir WM, Elsheikh HA, Hapke HJ, DTW Dtsch Tierarztl Wochenschr, 1995
(17) Dose related effect of aflatoxin B1 on liver drug metaboling enzymes in rabbit. Guerre P, Eeckhoutte C, Larrieu G, Burgat V, Galtier P, Toxicology 1996
(18) Comparison of hepatic and extrahepatic drug metabolizing enzyme activities in rats given single or multiple challenge infections with Fasciola hepatica.Biro-Sauveur B, Eeckhoutte C, Baeza E, Boulard C, Galtier P. Int J Parasitol 1995
(19) Effects of cage bedding on microsomal oxidative enzymes in rat liver. Weichbrod R, Cisar J, Miller R, Simmons A, Alvares A, Ueng T. Laboratory Animal Science 1988
(20) "Bedtime Story" by Dr S. Blake Hawley, Pet Age magazine, Nov. 1997 pg. 14-19

we sell lots of pine and cedar to be used as small animal bedding and have never had a report of anyone's animal getting ill as a result! -Howard McMurrian, President GEM Shavings & Sawdust Co.

Our company is over 100 years old. My family has owned the company for over 50 years. I have been with the company since 1987. Like GEM Shavings and Sawdust Company, we have never had anyone report that their animal(s) have become ill or died as a result of our Pine Shavings. Thank you for taking the time to dispel the many myths that softwood bedding is dangerous to small animals. General Manager Pioneer Sawdust e-mail 12/12/06

Thank you for that article. I am a UK rat breeder and also a scientist and have been plagued with this rubbish for years now. I would agree with all that you say, having bred rats for 40 years.(snip)
I was quality manager under GLP regulations for a research lab and shared my office with a rat liver toxicologist. She told me everything that is in your article, plus, in one study we did, a full life study where one group of rats had their microsomal enzyme systems significantly raised. The ones with high enzymes lived much longer than the others and on autopsy had decreased abdominal fat." 
Ann Storey Pres National Fancy Rat Society e-mail April 2007

The author has a Bachelor of Science degree, wrote "Caring for Your Pet Rabbit" & the Rabbit Education Society Rabbit Care Guide, as well as Bucky Bunny's Guide Pet Rabbit Care CD, was interviewed on Television (including nationally broadcast Fox's Pet News), has had several articles about rabbits published in various magazines (including Animal Life, Exotic Market Review, Domestic Rabbits, & Dwarf Digest) has raised rabbits as pets and for show since 1982, is educated in all aspects of rabbit care including health, and is an educator for the RES. The author is a member of the following organizations: World Rabbit Science Assoc.-American Branch, American Rabbit Breeders Association (has held position of committe chairperson), American Netherland Dwarf Rabbit Club, District II NDRC, NYSNDRC, New England NDRC, MVRBA (Past President).

The author wishes to thank her husband, a research scientist in organic analytical chemistry with the NYS Dept. of Health, for technical assistance in the preparation of this article.


Additional Information About Pine and Cedar

Is there a financial reason why certain groups want people to stop using pine and cedar and use another product?

From NJ HRS summer 2000 newsletter
"Donate to HRS by Saving Yesterday’s News UPCs!"
" NJ House Rabbit Society is part of a savings program offered by the Yesterday’s News litter company."

Hmmm perhaps there is.

Check out the back of a bag of alternative litters, many have printed on the bag a reference to the phenols that softwood litter contain and that their alternative litter is much safer. Problem is these alternative litters have not undergone testing to see if they affect HME or respiratory function. It seems that the alternative litter companies are taking full advantage of the pine/cedar scare to increase their market share. Keep in mind that most of these alternative litters are also much more expensive than shavings.


A look at the opponents of Pine/Cedar usage

Petbunny site Pine/Cedar with reprints of some of the studies and commentary. Good reading as the commentator points out that the studies cited do not show what so many say they do.

HRS article "The Dangers of Softwood Shavings" George Flentke, Ph.D.
"The phenols in the softwood (pine and cedar) shavings causes changes in the liver's enzymes."
Those changes are not a sign of damage as already reported. I hate that this is stated by so many but they neglect to mention that the "changes" are part of the normal function of the body. I believe that putting it this way easily leads people to misinterpret what actually happens.

"The second objection to softwood shavings exposure as a cancer risk is less concrete. Epidemological studies in humans point to increase risks in people who work in saw mills, but the issue of volatile phenol involvement is not clear. Cedar shavings have caused increased risk for cancer in certain rodents, but in many ways this work was skewed by the nature of the experiment. Thus the evidence is, at best, only suggestive."

Again with the sawmill studies, but there is a big difference in environment between sawmills and a small animal with processed shavings in a cage tray or litterpan. Basically the author hasn't found a link between cancer and shavings use in small animals.

HRS again:

Listed under references for "Pine/Cedar Shaving Toxicity" the HRS lists the following:
"1.Rabbit Health Newsletter (Nov. 1991) cites U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services, National Institutes of Health pamphlet No.86-23 titled "Guide for the Care and use of Laboratory Animals" A quote is listed as saying: "Aromatic hydrocarbons from cedar and pine bedding materials can induce the biosynthesis of hepatic microsomal enzymes (Vesell, 1967; Vesell, et al., 1976; Cunliffe-Beamer et al. 1981."

Rabbit Health Newsletter was published by an HRS chapter manager and more importantly the partial quote they use has been explained in my article. This section was what prompted me to research pine and cedar as I wondered what exactly "biosynthesis of hepatic microsomal enzymes" meant and was that bad. A classic example of how to mislead people by using scientific terminology.

Respiratory toxicity of cedar and pine wood: A review of the biomedical literature from 1986 through 1995 Written by Jeff Johnston, doctoral candidate in epidemiology, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hil

The above internet post is often referred to by opponents to pine/cedar use, however it appears that it was written by a student, wonder what his grade was. Again all it does is refer to studies done in sawmills on occupational hazards. Another paper that has not been published in any toxicology or pharmaceutical journals. If all this information from Johnston and HRS and others is accurate then why have they not had their articles published in scientific journals? All it boils down to is a bunch of people giving their opinion of published studies and interpreting them (or mis-interpreting) as they wish.

-WHAT'S THE SCOOP? or, What's Wrong with Cedar Shavings? by R. Kelly Wagner

The only merit in this article is that she lists excerpts from some of the studies, otherwise it's just a rehash of the above mentioned articles and studies that discuss occupational asthma and allergies, again nothing to show there could be a danger in using cedar or pine as small animal bedding. She does discuss her own experiences with people who have allergies to cedar or pine and how when they changed litter they stopped sneezing. It seems the danger of pine and cedar really only applies to owners and rabbits who happen to be allergic to them.



User is Offline Skipper's Mama
Florida
1252 posts Send Private Message
10/12/2012 3:26 AM

The consensus that we all have come to is that pine shavings is bad. When the pine shavings become wet from rabbit urine it gives off bad chemicals that harm rabbits. It is okay to use the pellet version of pine in products like Feline Pine. A lot of the BB users us wood stove pellets with out accelerant as litter for their buns. They get real cheap from hardware stores or animal places. Others use paper based products like Yesterday's News or Carefresh bedding. Don't feel bad though. I'm pretty sure every new bun owner nabs a thing of pine shavings thinking that it's okay. I know I did.


User is Offline Skipper's Mama
Florida
1252 posts Send Private Message
10/12/2012 3:29 AM
Oh I forgot to add. It is okay to use pine as a building material if it is not fresh. It has to be kiln dried and not treated with any chemicals. Also, the reason why the pelleted version of pine is safe is because the process used in pelleting it has killed the harmful chemicals in it that hurt the buns.

User is Offline Murasaki
Kanagawa, Japan
89 posts Send Private Message
10/12/2012 3:48 PM
I have been looking on the net for new bedding and something for the Litter box and everything is pine shavings .... I am now trying to get in touch with the Rabbit Association here in Japan and ask them advice on the matter.

From what I have read on their site is that the pine shavings meet the Law in Japan. 

In Japan you do anything to your pet that causes it harm or a un-natural death then you are going to go to prison for a min of 3 years, for neglecting the animal. And if you run a company supplying items for pets and a item causes death of a pet then the company is looking at fines over ¥1億 ($US 1,270,000)


Protection of Animals welfare and life was brought in by the Tokugawa Tsunayoshi (Shogun Tsunayoshi (1680-1709)) the 5th Shogun in the Tokugawa Dynasty and the laws have only been made stronger.

This is from Wiki ... as trying to translate today is a no go as still sick!

"Owing to religious fundamentalism, Tsunayoshi sought protection for living beings in the later parts of his rule. In the 1690s and first decade of the 18th century, Tsunayoshi, who was born in the Year of the Dog, thought he should take several measures concerning dogs. A collection of edicts released daily, known as the Edicts on Compassion for Living Things..."

The Law started off for Dogs, but over the years it became laws for all living things in Japan ... Under the law you cannot kill an animal without written government approval ... and anything that is kill the remains must be used as food. (Dogs, Cats & Monkeys excluded from the food chain) ... In Japan it is ILLEGAL to hunt for fun or sports, and when a Bear kills a human the Government will give a order to have that bear killed, the meat will them be use for humans, as not to waste a life.

So at the moment what I read in English on Food, Bedding, etc, like I said is very different from Japanese, because the Laws in Japan are so strict, unlike the laws back home in Australia for example.


User is Offline tobyluv
South Carolina
604 posts Send Private Message
10/12/2012 5:20 PM
There are a lot of different types of litter sold in the U.S. It seems like you should be able to find something other than pine shavings in Japan.

This is a print out that we have at the rabbit sanctuary where I volunteer, that tells of the dangers of pine shavings and some other litters, and lists the good litters to be used. Maybe some of these are available to you.


What to use in your rabbit's litter box

Remember that rabbits like to sit in their litter boxes for extended periods, and that they nibble on everything, so it's important to choose the right litter.
Do not use cedar or pine shavings. These contain dangerous aromatic oils that have been found to cause liver damage and respiratory problems. Don't use CatWorks, a litter made from oat hulls, which when ingested has caused fatal zinc poisoning. Swheat Scoop Litter should not be used since rabbits will often ingest it. It is comprised of wheat, is very high in carbohydrates, and can cause obesity, excessive cecal production, diarrhea and other health issues. Don't use clay litter. The dust causes respiratory problems, and if ingested, it is harmful to the digestive tract. Don’t use any clumping litters–if nibbled on, they are likely to cause obstructions in the intestinal tract. Also avoid corn cob litter. If eaten, it can cause a lethal intestinal blockage.
Recommended litters:
1. Newspaper, shredded or cut-up. It's inexpensive and readily available, but it offers no odor control. If the newspaper is cut into larger pieces, urine may puddle at first until it is absorbed into the paper, which could cause your rabbit to have damp feet. It can be composted.
2. Paper pulp litter. It has low dust, good absorbency, and no hazards, though it also offers little odor control. It can be flushed or composted. Brands include Carefresh, Yesterday's News, Cellu-Dri, and Eco Fresh.
3. Oat, alfalfa and wheat straw based pellets. These have low dust, good absorbency, and no hazards, although they can cause bloating if too much is ingested. They can be flushed or composted. Brands include Critter Country, Cat Country, Hartz Straw Pellet, and Eco-Straw.
4. Compressed sawdust (pine) pellets. Unlike pine shavings, these are safe, since they have no dangerous aromatic oils. They are economical, highly absorbent, and have good odor control. They may be composted. Brands include All Pet Pine, Feline Pine and Exquisicat.
5. Aspen bark, pellets or shredded. Highly absorbent, with good odor control. Pellets are economical , because it only takes a thin layer in the litter box. They may be composted. These larger pellets are good for long haired rabbits, since they don't get stuck in their fur as easily as the small particle litters. Brands include Aspen Fresh, Gentle Touch and Aspen Supreme.
6. Straw or hay. Straw can be dusty and is not very absorbent, but has no hazards, unless it becomes moldy. Any of the grass hays can be used. Be sure to clean frequently, as your rabbit will also be eating the hay. It may be composted.
7. Wood stove pellets. These are compressed pine or hardwood pellets. Make sure that the pellets are plain and that they don’t contain accelerants. These are very economical. They come in large bags and are inexpensive. They can be found in home supply or tractor supply stores.
8. Horse stall pellets. They are compressed sawdust (pine), also very economical. Found in feed stores, home supply stores, or tractor supply stores. One brand is Equine Pine.

If you change to a new litter, your rabbit may hesitate to use it. Mix some of the new with the old, or put some of the dirty litter into the new litter. Daily cleaning of the dirty areas is best. Regularly dump out the whole contents of the box, and thoroughly clean with an organic cleaner or a natural cleaner, such as vinegar or baking soda.
Many of these litters are available in pet supply stores, grocery stores, or discount stores. Others can be ordered from Drs. Foster & Smith (drsfostersmith.com, 1 800-381-7179), Bunny Bytes (bunnybytes.com, 1 888-563-9300), Pet Food Direct (petfooddirect.com, 1 800-738-3663) or various other pet supply catalogs and websites.

User is Offline Murasaki
Kanagawa, Japan
89 posts Send Private Message
10/12/2012 6:21 PM
I have been trying to find something different, but so far everything has been Pine Shavings...

User is Offline Monkeybun
Hillsboro, Oregon
10458 posts Send Private Message
10/13/2012 8:44 AM
Is there any kind of paper pellet type of litter used for cats? That would work too.

User is Offline bullrider76543
Joplin MO
1291 posts Send Private Message
10/13/2012 9:34 AM
I dont see Why Compressed wood pellets wouldnt work for a cat and a bun.
 photo bbsignature_zps33af2ebb.jpg

User is Offline Skipper's Mama
Florida
1252 posts Send Private Message
10/13/2012 12:12 PM
Hmmm.... That's really fascinating Murasaki. You're really making me love Japan more and more. I would call the company and ask how they make the pine shavings. I wonder if the shavings were kiln dried before selling if that would make a difference. I don't mean to cause you grief by bringing up the topic.

User is Offline Murasaki
Kanagawa, Japan
89 posts Send Private Message
10/13/2012 4:35 PM
I am still sick so not going out today, so the girlfriend is taking a trip to see if she can find something else to use ...and the Pine Shavings are kiln dried, and free of dust, from reading the company web site.

The Pine Shavings

And Yuki chan looking at getting to the TV again!


User is Offline Sam and Lady's Human
2006 posts Send Private Message
10/13/2012 6:18 PM
I'm a bit surprised no one mentioned this ( or I must've missed it) but you should really get her in for a vet visit. The fact she doesn't like to chew is a huge red flag to me that she has dental problems.

User is Offline Monkeybun
Hillsboro, Oregon
10458 posts Send Private Message
10/13/2012 6:37 PM
I wouldn't really say that S&L. None of my buns are huge chewers they leave the baseboards and furniture alone, and just eat hay.

User is Offline Sam and Lady's Human
2006 posts Send Private Message
10/13/2012 6:39 PM

I don't mean chewer in the destructive sense, I mean literally, his bunny won't chew, hay or pellets.


User is Offline Murasaki
Kanagawa, Japan
89 posts Send Private Message
10/13/2012 6:41 PM

S&L .. OH she loves to CHEW .... I am trying to teach her NOT to chew, my computer, laser mouse, carpet, kotatsu, TV remote, my kimono and hakama, etc etc etc ... it is the reason the TV area at the moment is blocked off, she took a chunk out of it already which I was not impressed with!

She eats hay and now the Pellets ... and a little cabbage.


User is Offline Sam and Lady's Human
2006 posts Send Private Message
10/13/2012 6:44 PM
But her back teeth, those are the ones used for hay and pellets and she's avoiding using those.

User is Offline Murasaki
Kanagawa, Japan
89 posts Send Private Message
10/13/2012 6:48 PM
She is eating a lot of Hay, she just hated the Timothy Hay, but going crazy over the Alfalfa Hay ... the Pellets are a mix of dry and now some that is the texture of scone dough.

User is Offline Skipper's Mama
Florida
1252 posts Send Private Message
10/13/2012 9:42 PM
I would see if you could coax her to eat some oat hay or orchard since she doesn't like timothy. I just remembered that you're new (although well read =p) and not sure if you have seen the Bible to eating for rabbits. http://rabbit.org/care/veggies.html I saw that you were feeding Yuki cabbage and I figured you would probably want to take a look at this since, she's already shown a propensity to be picky, so that you can give her a variety of greens later on down the road so she doesn't get bored of her food.

User is Offline Murasaki
Kanagawa, Japan
89 posts Send Private Message
10/13/2012 10:58 PM
I am not going to give her a lot of veggies at the moment because she is only about 5 to 6 weeks old, but I have let her nibble on a few .. she loves carrots, Red Bell Pepper, Parsley(So So), Cabbage she is crazy about,

The only hay in the shops around my area is Timothy and Alfalfa, I will need to look on the net for the others.

Today someone must have changed her batteries, because she has been hyper active and driving me nutz!

User is Offline bunfoolop
2 posts Send Private Message
10/29/2012 8:17 AM
If she is that old then she shouldn't be eating veggies at all yet. The veggies should be introduced when she is 12 weeks or older.
She should be on an alfalfa based pellet with alfalfa hay, until she is about 6 months.
Cabbage can cause gas problems in some buns and carrots should be fed in moderation, like fruit.

BINKYBUNNY FORUMS > DIET & CARE > Worried Daddy!

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